Spy38W 0 #26 November 8, 2002 QuoteI really want a close look at the new chest strap configuration on the new M-class Vector 3/Micron or whatever they call it. Is there something you're concerned about with the design of it or something? -- Hook high, flare on time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kolla 0 #27 November 8, 2002 Just look at this beauty: - how can you possibly not get a Vector 3 All blah aside, get a container that YOU like and is safe for what you intend to use it for.... it's all about your preferences here, not just what I have found to be the best for me :) Also, in the poll - the Vector 2 & 3 are two quite different containers - should perhaps be in seperate lines on the "ballot". Bloooos - and have a great weekend all! Kolla Blue Skies Magazine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsoutar 0 #28 November 8, 2002 Sweeeeet! Love mine too but I still want a d/bag like yours and Terry wont play! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #29 November 8, 2002 Quotethe Vector 2 & 3 are two quite different containers - should perhaps be in seperate lines on the "ballot". yeah thought of that but that would of made a huge poll, so I just put it there to get the vote and then I would read the critics and know that its the vector 3 or the micron what they chose. thanks for the suggestion. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #30 November 8, 2002 >I still want a d/bag like yours and Terry wont play! Build it yourself. It only takes about an hour to design one and sew ut up... Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 6 #31 November 8, 2002 Even though I don't jump one, I'm surprised that Racer was not included in the poll. It seems both reasonably popular, at least where I live, and widely imitated by non-US manufacturers. HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wingnut 0 #32 November 8, 2002 i vote RACER!!!!! owned two and my next one is gona be brand new...... jumped all but two of the rigs on the list and still think racers rock.........yeh, i know i'm in a small small minority.......... ______________________________________ "i have no reader's digest version" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spy38W 0 #33 November 8, 2002 Quoteijumped all but two of the rigs on the list and still think racers rock... Mind sharing why you think Racer's rock? I've never jumped one, but have seen a few in person, was nver particularly impressed by them -- Hook high, flare on time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #34 November 8, 2002 If am not mistaken Racer use 2 pin cypres, I already own a one pin cypres so its a no good. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 6 #35 November 9, 2002 I would be surprised if Racers didn't offer a one-pin version, but in any case, I wasn't suggesting you consider one, just that it should have been in the poll. HW Mirage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #36 November 9, 2002 The entire design of the racer requires a 2 pin Cypres. It is a rig with the old style two pin ripcord. Most riggers hate them and its deffinitly an art to pack them and make it look nice and neat on the first try. In addition to all the things for you to think about, consider your rigger too. Don't get a rig they can't close, or make them stuff a 190 reserve in a rig made for a 126. That being said... the Racer is the most comfortable harness I've ever tried on... its so soft and flexible its easy to forget its on. (way better then even the new cut in back styles)Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #37 November 9, 2002 Sorry Howardwhite, but Racer never did figure out the secret to building one-pin Pop-Tops. John Sherman experimented with a one-pin Racer circa 1990, but he could never achieve a reasonable pull force with a flat cap. The problem is transferring the load from the center loop out to the edges. The other reason is because Racers utilize a rather "dated" freebag design that requires above average skill to form a large enough "crater" for the pilotchute to sink into. It took me ten years to learn how to pack Racers gracefully and part of that process was learning to throw my steel bodkins in the trashcan (because they are not compatible with Cypri or Tandem Racers) and build my own temporary loops. Europeans had learned the secret to one-pin Pop-Tops 5 years earlier, so they built Teardrops with domed caps. The other reason I don't own a RAcer is that I am not willing to pay the extra money for a two-pin Cypres. If you ask me politely - at the 2003 PIA Symposium - I will show you another way to build a one-pin Pop-Top that is way easier to pack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #38 November 9, 2002 >If you ask me politely - at the 2003 PIA Symposium - I will show you another way to build a one-pin Pop-Top that is way easier to pack. Does this mean that your prototype will be there too?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #39 November 9, 2002 Speaking of one-pin poptops, Bombers doing what looks to be wonderful things with old Reflex. Now known as the Viper, I can't wait to see the "Papa-Echo" model. The rig looks sharp and if it is as functional and comfy as they are saying it will be I might get one. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sar911 0 #40 November 9, 2002 Racer As I am going to the various mfg. to lean from them about their rigs I just spent two weeks at Jump Shack. I was able to easily pack the reserve after a couple of times. The container does use a two pin cypress but it has a completely exposed pop-top and one of, if not the fastest deploying reserves that I have seen. I guess if you didn't use bodkins it would be hard to pack but I do use them without any problems. As for the freebag they are as modern as any of the others that I have seen. I currently have four rigs that I jump (Racer, Wings, Javelin). I am happy with all. It really has become a personal preference as to what you want and what options. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #41 November 10, 2002 I really prefer either the G3 or 4, but I'm stuck with a Vector II and a regular old Javelin now. Of those 2, the Jav is quite comfortable. Need money quick, I want one of the Rodriguez Brothers G4s!It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #42 November 10, 2002 Years ago, and not so much now, harness/container popularity was quite regional. I went to The Blue Sky Ranch in Gardiner, NY in 1991, and there were a TON of Racers. I went to DeLand in 1993 and saw a lot of Vector IIs, at Z-Hills, I saw a lot of Javelins, and at Perris I saw a lot of Talons. I'm sure a lot of this had to do with the manufacturere of the rig being close by in some instances. My advice to you is, look around and see what the majority is. What rigs do you see in pictures in Parachutist and Skydiving Magazine? What rig dominates your DZ? Here at Raeford it is Javelins & Odysseys, followed closely by Mirage G3/s and G4's. What rigs up for sale on the internet classifieds and eBay are selling for top dollar and holding their value? What will you want to be doing with the rig? Some rigs are better suited for some disciplines. Do some research and find the "National Gurus" in your particular discipline and email them for their opinion. Now on opinions . . . everybody will have a strong one on their favorite rig. Some may have strong opinions against rigs too. My personal choice was a Javelin Odyssey. To start with, I have been jumping a Javelin as a work rig for 7 years. I also know the folks at Sun Path personally, and they are not only incredible folks, but their customer service and flexibility to negotiation on features is great. The Javelin and Odyssey is TSOd to C23d, which means they have been tested to 360 lbs and 200 knots (placarded at 300 lbs and 170 knots). It does take some particular nuances to pack the reserve correctly (stowing the pilot chute fabric), but many rigs are this way. Javelins have had some issues with tuck tabs not staying closed, mostly from packing, but the new design tabs seem to tolerate a more flexible range of packing styles. Price? For me it's simple . . . you get what you pay for in this sport. Hope this helped?!?!? Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 6 #43 November 10, 2002 "Sorry Howardwhite, but Racer never did figure out the secret to building one-pin Pop-Tops." Sorry, riggerrob, but I said I didn't jump one. I hadn't looked at this issue (even though I know John and Nancy.) Riggers seem in my experience to divide between a few that love to pack Racers and a larger number that hate to/won't. Thanks for the correction. John's an engineer; I just guessed he had figured it out. HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #44 November 10, 2002 "As for the freebag they are as modern as any of the others that I have seen. I currently have four rigs that I jump (Racer, Wings, Javelin)." sar911, It looks like you and I are going to disagree on whether Racers have modern freebags. I think that Racers cling to early 1980s technology, while most of the other manufacturers have introduced improvements. If you examine your Javelin freebag, you will notice that it is "molarized" so that the closing loop only has to pass through one grommet in the center of the bag (vs. 4 grommets on Racer). Molar bags eliminate one tool and a leading cause of reserve canopy damage. Most of the damage I have seen to reserve canopies - over the last decade - has been caused by riggers who use "more muscle than skill" in pulling the closing loop through the d-bag. Even if only one repack in 10,000 results in damage, it is too much in my book. Ergo, I will never buy a container that does not have a "molarized" freebag. Most Talons, half the Vector/Centarus clones and all the Javelin clones use molar bags. If you examine the freebag from your Wings, you will see a couple more improvements. Wings' Velcro protectors eliminate another tool and have been copied by several other manufacturers, Hint, hook Velcro is the leading cause of damage to reserve lines. Wings' other improvement is a split d-bag. The split d-bag makes it slightly easier to insert ZP reserve canopies. Wings is definitely ahead of the industry on this one, Oh, I tried repeatedly to pack Racer reserves by the factory recommended method, but there were so many tools that I lost count! Now I use three tools where I would need 6 by the factory method. My third tool is actually 4 separate tools sewn together, to simplify the tool count at the end of the pack job. Since I started rigging in 1984, I have seen a bunch of improvements in reserve container design, but Racer has not kept up with the times and I begrudge the extra half hour it takes to pack a Racer.. P.S. If you want to label me as a grumpy, Racer-hater, fine! Just remember that I am trying to be part of the solution by developing a tool that simplifies the packing process and am currently developing a vastly simplified Pop-Top reserve container that has 1/4 the number of grommets as a Racer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sar911 0 #45 November 10, 2002 Rob, I guess you would have to define “modern” and by whose standards the definition comes from. Mine comes from being at four of the top mfg. In the past six weeks viewing their latest products, working with them and finding out what are the good and bad points and what is being done in the near future. You seem to be an historian of information about rigs. I am only commenting on current information of the latest rigs out there and what my personal experience has been. Maybe it would have taken me ten years as it did you to pack a racer reserve if I had not gone to the factory and learned the tricks to make it easy. But the undisputed fact is it doesn’t take me any longer to pack a racer reserve than any other rig. I took your advice and not only looked at the freebag on the javelin (and yes it is molarized), but I also conducted a pull test and found it took 1.2 pounds more pull to empty the bag as a result of it being more restrictive. In a real world deployment I don’t think it would matter, but as you said if it makes the slightest difference, go with safety. As for the damage to canopies, I agree with you that some people use more muscle than skill. With that said if they are damaging the canopies for any reason maybe they need more training. As to the number of grommets, it doesn’t concern me as I judge a rig by function and reliability. And the racer has one of the fastest time proven reserves on the market. Maybe if you spent some time at the factory you might be able to resolve the issues you have. I have found everyone to be very helpful and will bend over backwards for you. There always will be better, faster and more reliable ways for things to work, and discussion like this is how they are born. Best regards, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #46 November 11, 2002 By far the Javelin Odysey. Comfort is amazing. The Lateral Cutbacks are way worth it, at first I did not like it, but now I love it cause it hugs my back. I think the Mirage's are too blocky. I have seen the G4s, still think they are too blocky. Much more comfotable than a Micron, which feels like a board on my back. The odysey is also extremly secure in all its flaps. And the rig just looks beautiful. Money is not always everything, but it seems in skydiving you often get what you pay for. Besides, The Knights, Majik, Airspeed.....All Javelin Odyseys. JonathanJonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #47 November 11, 2002 >Besides, The Knights, Majik, Airspeed.....All Javelin Odyseys. How many of them get a killer deal or get them for free?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #48 November 11, 2002 All of them I would think, but if you are jumping that much you are going to want a good rig that is going to hold up and be comfortable and safe. I am sure they could go to any manufacturer and have a good chance at getting them highly discounted or free, but they stick with Sunpath. Even PD Blue went from RWS to Sunpath before the seperation. JonathanJonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #49 November 11, 2002 Sorry Mr. sar 911, I have only been to three of the major manufacturers. I worked for Butler Parachute Systems for a year, Para-Phernalia for a year and Rigging Innovations for three years. While I was working at R.I. we de-bugged the '94 Talon, did all the drop tests on the Aviator and introduced the Genera, Talon 2 and Telesis 2 harness/containers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #50 November 11, 2002 Its alll sponsorship for the big teams.. if some one offers you all new rigs and training money and some other company does'nt.. you'd be an idiot to stick with the second company. The companies sponsor the people they think will be able to get the most people to admire them and buy the same thing that they are using. Parasport Italia a few years ago gave Airspeed altirons to use and advertized the fact airspeed was using them. Lots of sales, then once they quit advertising them... the sales disappeared. If Majik started jumping some new rig... I'm sure there would be a flock of people following them to the new company even if the only reason they switched was the new company might have paided them some big bucks. Following anything other then your own demos and trials is just submitting to the marketing powers.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
