mnischalke 0 #51 February 3, 2004 What is the Katana's market then? What do you perceive as being its competition? It's clear to me from PD's website that cross-braced canopies are not the target market for the Katana. It's also clear that the Samurai is not competing with a VX. QuoteThe Katan prototypes have been in the field for about 6 months, but I doubt if you've seen any of the testing, or recived any of the data about the canopy. So me actually handling one is just unfathomable to you? Have you compared them yourself yet? Out of curiosity, do you make a living (or a portion of it) by selling PD products? mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #52 February 3, 2004 QuoteOut of curiosity, do you make a living (or a portion of it) by selling PD products? You could say so. I also make a living selling Precision, Aerodyne, Atair, Icarus, North American, Sunpath, Wings, Mirage, Talon, ...... I think you see where this is headed. It also has nothing to do with my opinion of your claim.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #53 February 3, 2004 Much like my feelings about my canopy or BigAir have nothing to do with what I have said about comparing those canopies. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #54 February 4, 2004 >And speaking of airlocks, I heard years ago that PD does own the rights to the airlock - I recall Airtime/ Brian selling it to them. I could be wrong though. PD has licenced the usage of Airlocks from Brian and BigAir. If you were to break canopies down into 7 groups you will find the majority of the canopies made fall into them. Student 7 Cell - low/ no taper 9 cell square 9 cell lightly tapered 9 cell highly tapered 7 cell Xbraced 9 cell Xbraced. With in each group there are sub groups. The 9 cell highly tapered can be broken down into two groups based on their recovery arcs. There are canopies with longer arcs, thne there are canopies with shorter arcs. The market is currently wanting a canopy from PD that goes into this subgroup so the Katana is the end result. It just so happens that the Sam, the Crossfire2, and a few other canopies also go here. The pilot that likes a short arc will not like one of these canopies, and the pilot that likes the longer arc will like any of them. The individual choice usually comes down to something personal like turns, flare, handeling... things like that. So in a way the Katana and the Sam are aimed at the same target group.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMO 0 #55 February 4, 2004 QuoteSo in a way the Katana and the Sam are aimed at the same target group Sounds like a good old-fashioned brand war to me. Pretty soon people will want an option with a little kid peeing on the competitors logo on the bottom skin of their canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #56 February 4, 2004 Cool......JJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #57 February 4, 2004 QuoteSounds like a good old-fashioned brand war to me Well, that's why Atair as the diamonds on the bottom of the Cobalts. This is sort of why I don't see why PD isn't giving away the Katana logo on the bottom of the canopy for free. Sure, it'll cost them, but it ads to the mystic of the canopy and their brand. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing specific designs on canopies in reference to their model/brand in the future. A design that is easily identifiable from the ground.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SLIDER 0 #58 February 4, 2004 OK - with all that being said, I'm a newer jumper(250 jumps) flying a stiletto loaded at 1.35. when do you recommend starting to fly the more stable air locked canopy. What wing load should you even consider? Don't get me wrong I'm not looking to screw myself in the ground, I'm trying to learn more canopy stats and characteristics from the people who are flying them."there's a fine line between hobby and mental illness" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #59 February 4, 2004 Just wondering, do you really think that laying one un-inflated canopy next to (or on top of) another could give you a reference to say they are the same? Woulnd't you think that differences in line length, and slight differences in the construction would give you a compleetly different inflated wing? Furthermore, if PD was releasing a Samurai copy, why would they have taken so long to test it? The Samurai is a proven canopy. A copy could have been released last summer, and probably sold in a good quantity at that time. Why would PD sit on a proven design and wait untill most of the country was snowed in to release that product? I am not commenting on the airlock issue, just the assertion that the Katana is a Samurai in disguise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #60 February 4, 2004 QuoteThis is sort of why I don't see why PD isn't giving away the Katana logo on the bottom of the canopy for free. The complexity of the Atair logo, and the Katana Logo, make the cost of the Katana logo prohibitive. Besides any added cost WILL end up getting passed on to the end user in one way or another. Do ya' really want to pay for it?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #61 February 4, 2004 Quit thinking in the reality of the situation and think about the theoretical talk of brand loyalty. Continuing to build that brand loyality will continue to push PD to the top of the heap year after year after year.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #62 February 4, 2004 QuoteQuit thinking in the reality of the situation and think about the theoretical talk of brand loyalty. Continuing to build that brand loyality will continue to push PD to the top of the heap year after year after year. I understand what you're getting at, but right now I don't think they have anything to fear. The material costs alone for making that logo are going to add more than $50 to the cost of materials, and the added labor is huge. Then you have to consider the pack volume problem. A canopy with the logo will pack up almost a full size bigger. Then there is the complexity of manufacturing and the unwriten law that the more complex it is the more likely something will be screwed up. With all thos factors in mind I imagine PD decided an aplicay logo vs. the public image was not worth it, and I don't think they've lost by that decision. As a side note the Atair logo is very simple to manufacture, and does not add to the pack volume because it's adding no extra material. It's a part of the botom skin rather than being a layer over the botom skin. It also adds at least 8 more seams and that in my opinion both reduces the strength and durability of the design. The PD logo could not be done the same way unless the logo was changed signifgantly. I really don't think PD has a problem generating brand loyalty without the logo.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #63 February 4, 2004 First off, I cannot comment on what the good folks at PD are thinking in terms of marketing strategy in releasing a much anticipated canopy during winter months. I also cannot comment on PD's testing and evaluation process. Laying down a pair of canopies for comparison only showed how the panels matched dimentionally and in shape. Now, if a canopy's endcell matches that of another canopy, (considering all the ribs are scaled versions of the airfoil pattern represented in the endcell) that is a perfect indicator of the shape of the airfoil, as you are directly comparing airfoils. The planform is a little different, but each panel has a set of dimensions which can be compared to the corresponding panel on another canopy. The leading edge and trailing edge may also be compared in relation to ellipsis. Subtle differences in construction can be observed, but since the canopies are constructed in the same shop, ya don't have to look at every seam to ensure nothing new is going on inside the stitch. Variations in crossport designs can cause top-skin distortion differences. For instance, BigAir uses two stacked circles rather than the traditional oblong design, which seems to reduce top-skin distortion. I digress. Lines can alter the spanwise curve of the wing, of course, and will certainly lead to differing flying characteristics. But, unless the lines put enough stress on the wing to cause distortion between the loaded ribs, thereby changing it's physical shape, the wing itself does not change. The only thing that changes is it's angle of incidence and the spanwise curve. The nose of a canopy can also be looked at in the same manner of matching and analyzing. One sure difference between the Katana and the Samurai is the much larger opening on the endcell of the Katana. Rather than asserting something, to me the above is an indicator that there are more than enough similarities to warrant further exploration of this. If someone wants to compare the CAD designs, that would certainly bring a final verdict to light. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #64 February 4, 2004 The PD logo is being built right into the bottom skin. During my tour of the factory Kolla was kind enough to show me a logo on the cutting table and how its put together. The added bulk all in seams, there is little fabric that gets overlapped. The cutting was all done on the laser table and they were finding pieces could be made out of areas that otherwise would have been scrap so its not much in material either.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #65 February 5, 2004 The end cell does not have to be a scaled version of all the ribs. Many aircraft wings have a different cross section ay different points along the wing (especially high performance wing). Why would a cnaopy designer limit themselves to scaling the same shape, when differing shapes may provide better performance? Are they doing this? I don't know, but I'l leave the possibility open, where you have ruled this out completely. I agree the canopies are made in the same factory, but is built to Brian Germains specs, the other to PD's specs. If PD did come up with some newer construction techinques, as much as they may value their business relationship with Big Air, I doubt they would share thier findings. Again, this may not be the case, but you have refuted this as if it were a fact you had first hand knowledge of. The line set provides the shape of the canopy. As much as air pressure and the cut of the fabric provide a shape, the line tension is responsible for a greater portion of the shaping of the inflated wing. Yes the fabric is cut and the lines are sized to fit together, but the line lenght itself would be a better judge of how similar two canopies would be when inflated. Addtionally, the spanwise curve of the canopy has a good deal of influence on the flight characteristics. Ever notice how flat a Velocity is? Or how much curve there is on a Navigator? Considering that a great deal of effort has been put into the noses of modern canopies (formed, partially formed, X-mods on the VX, H-mods on the Cobalt) is seems that this is an area where a great deal of tuning can be done for greater performance. Why you have minnimized the inportance of differences in this area, I do not know. I would also doubt that you have actually made the in depth, side by side comparison that you claim, the validity of which I still question. There have been Katanas flying around for awhile, but they were the test units, generally sent out only to trusted friends of PD. It seems unlikely that anyone falling into that catagory, with a test version of a new product would allow you to lay it out, and make the measurements/comparisons that you have claimed. Having been invovled in skydiving, and with some ties to PD through the development of the Spectre, Velocity, and Sabre2, I do know hoe they handle thier test untis, and how they develop thier products. You are making a good number of assumptions that are not correct. I have nothing but respect for Brian Germain and his products. PD is not using them a pattern for any of their products. Really. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #66 February 5, 2004 In case you missed it the first time: QuoteRather than asserting something, to me the above is an indicator that there are more than enough similarities to warrant further exploration of this. If someone wants to compare the CAD designs, that would certainly bring a final verdict to light. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #67 February 5, 2004 So... the consensus of test pilots is that the recovery arc is longer than that of the Stiletto, but that's not saying much. The Stiletto never had much of a recovery arc. If exact same size WLs and sizes of canopy were compared, then perhaps some sort of ratio could be established (it'd most likely have some curvature to it). For example, "I was losing 350 feet over 4 seconds in my 270s on my Stiletto. I lose y feet over s seconds in a 270 on my Katana.""¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #68 February 5, 2004 "As a side note the Atair logo is very simple to manufacture, and does not add to the pack volume because it's adding no extra material. It's a part of the bottom skin rather than being a layer over the botom skin. It also adds at least 8 more seams and that in my opinion both reduces the strength and durability of the design." actually the logo construction increases, not decreases the canopies strength and provides additional bottom skin support along the fabrics bias. cobalts intentionally overstressed to fail never fail near the logo. i havent really read this thread, but i think there was a question about if different airfoils are used along the span of a parachute?: the answer is no, this is not practiced on skydiving canopies, it is done on paragliders. sincerely, daniel preston atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com I really don't think PD has a problem generating brand loyalty without the logo.Daniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #69 February 5, 2004 QuoteI really don't think PD has a problem generating brand loyalty without the logo. Yeah, people are really hardcore about that. Atair has generated some seriously hard core brand loyalty as well over the past 3 years.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yeah, people are really hardcore about that.
Atair has generated some seriously hard core brand loyalty as well over the past 3 years.
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites