Toggle Turns & Front Risers

[StearmanR985 0]

1st; I have 52 jumps and I jump a Triathlon 175 loaded at 1.2:1

I have read so much on low turn incidents that I make my final up HIGH with toggles then ride the fronts all the way down to flare point. I have found that I LOVE the front risers, the extra speed generated has given me much more power on my flare. My landings have been far superior since I started using the fronts.

As I continue gaining experience under canopy I would like to slowly start to incorporate the turn to final as part of my landing. However, I don't really like rear riser turns, I prefer using the toggle to make the turn then immediately get on the fronts.

Is this an okay practice or am I going to have to work more with my rear risers and get used to them? What are the advantages/disadvantages to each type of turn?

Thanks for any input.

[davelepka 4]

1. Rear riser turns aren't used for swooping/landing. You may be confusing this with rear riser flares for landing.

2. If you NEED to use your front risers to get a good landing, you are jumping the wrong canopy. You should be able to land your canopy with a straight in approach in no wind, and have a soft satnd up. If you cannot, you need to re-think your canopy choice (ie; bigger, or maybe a couple of extra cells).

3. Anything basides a straight in approach, with no additional speed is too much at this point. Work on your accuracy, landing pattern, and traffic monitoring. Front risers and other advanced landing techniques should be reserved for more experienced jumpers, with more time under thier current canopy (your 52 jumps minus your student and/or rental gear jumps doesn't add up to alot of jumps under that canopy).

While you may disagree with my viewpoint, consider the fact that you were under the impression that a rear riser turn is an acceptalbe manuver for building speed for your landing. Yes, you aksed about it, but consider the multitude of other things you may have mis-informaiton on, and may not ask about.

The landing phase of your skydive is the most dangerous part. Have respect for it, and approach it slowly and with caution.

[StearmanR985 0]

I appreciate all advice.
I do thank you for clarifying the rear riser issue.

I do not need to use the fronts for nice stand up landings I have just found that they are more fun because I get to bleed off some of that extra speed just above the ground before touching down.

Traffic monitoring is definetly something I need to work on. I do keep my head on a swivel but I am so worried about getting in someones way that I typically land out just a bit on purpose. Better safe than sorry I suppose.

Thanks

[AggieDave 6]

I got the impression that you take a really long final from a higher altitude then usual from your first post. Am I right?

If so, you may want to talk to some of the experienced jumpers, instructors, or/and the S&TA about that practice. At a busier DZ, that can definately cause some problems with people setting up in the proper pattern.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[StearmanR985 0]

Yep, I do typically fly a long final. Not ridiculously long but maybe longer than necessary. I will have to work on this.

I also think you are right; I need to talk with the DZ staff. The traffic does make me very nervous and it is only going to get busier as the weather improves. The more canopies in the air the more likely I am to set up to land off just to stay out of the way. I just hate the idea of getting in someones way or me going to slow on my straight in aproach and getting in the way of someones HP landing.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I just hate the idea of getting in someones way or me going to slow on my straight in aproach and getting in the way of someones HP landing.

Well, if you're opening at the correct altitude for your license and you're not spirialling down into traffic, then the HP guys will be long out of your way. Infact they'll probably be on the ground before you even get to your base/crosswind leg.

If you fly the pattern correctly, then you shouldn't be in anyone's way. If a HP guy is trying to setup behind you on a correct final, that means they'd be above you as well. At that point they should either a) not hook it or b) land away from you.

Talk to the folks at your DZ, I know at the very least the instructors and the S&TA would be more then happy to help you out!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AndyMan 7]

My first thoughts are that if you are taking a long final because the ideal of a low turn scares you, then you have more important things to be learning then how to be aggresive in your landings.

It's critical that you build skills in how to fly at low altitudes BEFORE you start to add performance to your landings.

Learn to walk before you run, etc.


_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[StearmanR985 0]

Thanks for the input guys. Much appreciated.

I will get with an instructor regarding the pattern and traffic. Some of this "being in the way" feeling may just be in my head. Regardless I will check it out.

I will wait a bit longer before incorporating ANY type of turn as part of my actual landing. However, I will very carefully adjust my altitude on my turn onto base and final to shorten that final leg up a bit.

But I must confess, once I am on final I will continue to use fronts on my landings 'cause that little bit of extra speed and power for the flare is so much damn fun!!

This sport is so enjoyable I can barely stand it!!

Jeff

[bodypilot1 0]

Jeff
PLEASE feel free to ask me ANY questions you may have when I'm at the DZ.
Posting on here may be a fun thing to do, but it may also be abit confusing if explaned wrong, or by the newbie skydiver that thinks he knows the right way? Read the fatality reports in skydiving and look at the leading cause of them these days? DONT be one of them friend, you have PLENTY of time in the future to try a high performance landing! Just practice landing safely for now!
Like I said, I was your Instructor, and I will always be!
Just lookin' out for ya

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[BrianSGermain 1]

There are several reasons to avoid performing a hard toggle turn prior to going into straight front risers.

The first is that the "G" loading will drop drastically immediately following the hard toggle turn. If you hit turbulence at that moment, you canopy can collapse. Bad thing.

The second is that your front riser pressure will spike sky high in a short time frame, limiting the amount of time you can keep the canopy diving. This is due to the fact that the canopy is swinging dynamically on the "pitch" axis, and is struggling to level-off. The swing out will always be followed by an aggressive return back to center.

Try performing a 90 degree turn, and then straightening it out into both front risers. If the front riser pressure is increasing too quickly you can begin carve the canopy through the turn with offset-double fronts. This maintains the dive while keeping the turn-rate slow. The idea is no0t to whip it around, only to gain speed and extend te recovery arc.

You need to rehearse all this up high, and use your altimeter to discover how much altitude is lost in the maneuver. Try to make the canopy dive as much as possible in the shortest possible amount of heading change.

Good luck, and take your time with the process. If you survive, you'll get good at it.
+

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[StearmanR985 0]

Thanks for the post. I tinkered with this a bit yesterday on my second landing of the day. I blew it. I tried a GENTLE 90 degree turn to final a bit lower then my usual then went to fronts. I noticed that the canopy was reacting a bit differently so I got off the fronts and went to "standard" toggle landing but flared a bit early and ended up on my hands and knees, DOH! I have slow feet, and the ground was quite soft and I was wearing work boots. Excuses, excuses......

I am going to keep my turn to final a bit higher and stick with straight in approach for awhile Once my canopy has recovered from the turn then I will practice my landing with and without fronts. The flare power is completely different and with my second jump yesterday I did not compensate for the that lack of power very well. Practice, practice, practice....But pratice safley.

[AndyMan 7]

If you're going to be doing high performance landings, it is absolutely critical that you wear good footwear. This excludes workboots, or "parachute boots", from the olden days. Wear shoes you can run in on every jump.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

The flare power is completely different and with my second jump yesterday I did not compensate for the that lack of power very well. Practice, practice, practice....But pratice safley.

It should be the exact opposite. With more speed comes more flare power, if you felt that there was no power (ie the canopy didn't react fast enough to your flare input) you probably let go of the fronts too late.

It's also worth noting that before doing riser approaches close to the ground (besides practicing up high) you should confirm that your brake settings are not too short and causing the brakes to be pulled taught when using a front riser. To test this (up HIGH + 2000 ft in CLEAR airspace) pull down on a front riser and look at the tail of the canopy. There should be no deflection of the tail. If there is deflection then this can cause the canopy to feel like it's bucking and unstable.

All that said, there are plenty of other things you should be working on before increasing your approach speeds that will better prepare you for HP landings.

Just be safe and take it easy.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[StearmanR985 0]

Thanks for the reply Ian,

I should have been more clear in my description. What I meant was that I got off the fronts up much higher and went to a standard toggle only approach and landing. My canopy had decelerated to normal speed before flare time and I did not compensate for the reduced flare power that I had gotten 'used to', hence my face plant.

I did have the opportunity to speak with my instructor, bodypilot1, on Friday at the DZ. The advice: No turns as part of my landing, more specifically, NO RISER turns as part of my landing. Sounds good to me. Straight in on fronts is fine but I needed to make some changes to my technique. The advice paid off, my flare became more predictable, BTW thanks again Ed.

Jeff

[ianmdrennan 2]

Awesome! Glad to hear Bodypilot1 is looking out for you. Enjoy your progression in high speed approaches, don't let it frustrate you when people are trying to tell you to slow down (they're doing it for a reason). Pay attention to good advice and you're well on your way to becoming a good canopy pilot
See you in the air.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[davelepka 4]

If you are coming in on double fronts, building extra speed, when you release the risers, your canopy will turn that extra speed into lift on it's own, with no input from the pilot. The trick is to make sure that this is happening just as you need to plane out for your landing.

If you let off too high, as you are waiting to come down to your flare altitude, your canopy will level off somewhat, and go a to a more shallow glide angle (in comparison to full flight). The canopy will ride this glide angle untill the speed reduces enough for it to return to it natural gilde angle and arispeed (full flight).

The trouble is that during the last part of this level off, the canopy will be going slower than full flight, which means one of three things will happen:

1. You will reach your flare point at the end of the level off, and the reduced speed will give you reduced flare power, even less than a standard, full flight approach.

2. The canopy will finish its level off, and be in the process of returing to full flight when you reach your flare point. The problem here is that the canopy will dive slightly while transitioning between the slower than normal end of the level out and full flight. During this dive, you are behind the canopy, and in order to produce a flare, you first need to rotate forward under the canopy before you realize any actual reduction in decent rate or forward speed. This delay in response to input will manifest itslef as a precieved reduction in flare power.

3. The level off will occur high enough that your canopy can dive, and recover and be in a standard full flight configuration when you reach your flare point. Landing should proceed as normal.

Here's the tricky part. If you release the riser too high, you risk scenario 1 or 2, which nobody wants. If you hold them too long, you may not have sufficeint time to properly flare and will impact the ground at a high rate of speed. It's a bit of a catch-22 where too high is bad, and too low is bad (probably worse). There's a narrow window you're trying to fly through, be careful.

[StearmanR985 0]

Very interesting perspective. I believe that what happened to me was scenario # 2. I remember that my ground speed was still up a bit (just enough that I could not run it out in the soft dirt) but the flare just wasn't there.

Speaking of holding the fronts too long, that is exactly where I was advised to make some adjustments. I was on the front risers right down to flare point. The problem with this is that I would then basically snap flare to avoid hitting the ground. What would happen is I would come right down to my knees just scrapping the grass then gain a bit of altitude and stand it up. Though the ride and surf is quite exhilerating and I received some compliments from peeps that probably didn't know better(and my daughter thinks it's cool) it is definetly NOT the safewest way to land.
So now I am working on still using the fronts but getting off them a bit earlier to allow my canopy's attitude to adjust while still maintaining most of the speed built up followed by a more controlled flare. It is all about timing and so far it is working out quite well as I have not had to snap the toggles to land safely but can still surf it a bit and not as close to the ground either.

Thanks for the post,
Jeff

[grega 0]

Well since you're already working on your double fronts approach...

You don't need to pull them down so much that the canopy will attain maximum speed that it can with double front risers pulled down.
(Each canopy requires different front riser input to attain maximum speed. Some need 10 inches, others need only 5. Depends on the design, size of the canopy, wing loading,... If you pull your front risers too far, not only it will not produce any more speed, you will actually loose energy for speed and lift because you'd create a step in a canopy which is not very effective wing shape)
Figure out how much of front risers is that (do that up high) on your canopy. And when you are learning front riser landings, you don't need to pull front risers all the way to that point. you can pull them only 20% to that point (yes that can be only an inch or two). That way if you do miss your "Window", the mistake will be barely noticeable. Of course the speed/flare will also be barely higher if performed correctly, but better to do safe baby steps, than break a leg in front of everybody. When you learn how to land perfectly with 20% double fronts 3 times in a row, go to 40%, then 60%...

When should you let your front risers? I read somewhere that you let of front risers a few feets above where you would start flare-ing at your normal straight in landing. But again it depends a lot on how much front riser input you gave...

Hope that helps a little

"George just lucky i guess!"

[emallin 0]

Given that you have started using front risers at such an early stage I was just curious if you have spent as much time with other vital canopy techniques such as flat turns. If this hasn't been somthing you have already become proficient at, it may be wise to mention this to your instructor and ask him about the importance of flat turns. Possibly the most important skill to learn when perfoming high performance landings is when to recognize not to use a high perfomance landing and use a technique such as flat turns to land safely whilest in traffic.

Have fun with your progression!

[skysaintj 0]

Hi i have obviously ran accross this discussion being part of another discussion about positive and negative recovery arc...and just feel that certain canopies are made for swooping and if you are a swoop addict you need to do your homework and see whats outhere...personal experience has shown me that cross braced canopies seems to be the better option example the velocity has a longer pendilum and because of this you can start your frontriser turn higher which i feel is already a safer option the canopy depending on size generates alot of speed because of the time that it is given to do so and the cross braced design is a much harder wing which makes recovery if needed easier ...toggle turns are just stupid , to much of a commitment etc...front riser turns are better because of the fact that you can let go of the riser halfway through the turn if you are to low and even if you end up going downwind you will walk away which means you can have another go at it....

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[skysaintj 0]

....just to give some personal advice on when you need to let go of your front risers adding that you do 180 degree turns and bigger and jump wingloadings of 1.4 and up a good guideline is to let go and let 3 seconds pass before you level out this gives the canopy chance to level out by itself and no toggle digging and broken bones....

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[StearmanR985 0]

emallin,

Yep, I have worked on flat turn landings. I have practiced flat turns up high several times and I have landed a flat turn twice for practice as well. Probably still need some work though as I slid (like baseball) both of those landings. I was coming in just awkward enough that I couldn't quite stand them up.

Thanks and have a great day.

[emallin 0]

sounds as though you're taking a good approach to canopy piloting progression.

Best of luck and loadsa fun!!!!