Canopy Question:

[Kimblair13 0]

OK...here's the thing. I currently have a Sabre2 135. I went from Lazer 250 to PD 190 to Esprit 170 to Sabre2 150 to Sabre 135 to Crossfire 149 to what I have now. So, my question is what canopy would you suggest I go to next. I know I want a 120 or close to that, but should I find another Sabre2 or go with something else. I'm thinking about an Alpha 120. Any suggestions you guys have would be greatly appreciated. Oh and right now I'm at a 1.26 wing loading and a 120 would put me at 1.42.
KW

[AggieDave 6]

I'm willing to bet that you're not flying your Sabre2 135 to its fullest and that you should stay where you're at for right now. Really and truely learn how to fly that canopy before you downsize.

Give it to the hot-shit swooper on the DZ, have him/her jump it for a few jumps. If you can out swoop that person on your canopy, then you're ready. Since its your canopy and you should have enough jumps on it that you should have it dialed in enough that you can swoop it as good if not better then them.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TOTALCHAOS127 0]

Just my 2 cents but i think your cool where your at for a canopy size. By the looks of it you have less than 100 jumps on that canopy unless the others where just things u barrowed for a jump or 2. Give the canopy a chance you will be surprised on what u can do with a 135. And if your anything like me your wing loading will increase becuase of all the extra beer ya drink at the DZ

[nbblood 0]

Maybe you should check out Billvon's Checklist and see where you stand. Also talk to the instructors at your DZ.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[sdctlc 0]

If the note of 150 or so jumps is correct stay with the 135. Really might be snapper then you think as you start to discover how to fly it more and more.

I'll put it this way, going smaller is going to do you NO GOOD. Might be Faster but not really better. I would not go any smaller for a good number of jumps. You should be able to have plenty of fun with the 135, keep some what a margin of safety, but please note that a slightly tapered canopy at the noted load will also bite if your not carefull. Concentrate on Freefall and canopy controll. You will be suprised at waht you can do with that canoppy at that load for the next couple hundred jumps......

Scott C.

Forgot to add you really have no business at the jump number noted under a canopy loaded at close to 1.5... Just my opinion, take it as that. talk to you instructors and I would guess that they will suggest you not go any smaller right now

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[GravityGirl 0]

Kim,

I would love to sell you a canopy, but I think you have an awesome one right now.

No need to rush. If you want to learn some new tricks, please come down to Byron and I'll help you wring that thing out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[piisfish 140]

yep, as already said, maybe you should stay with that one...
got nearly 200 jumps on my safire2 139, I'm not "bad" at flying it, but certainly not perfect either... Thought about downsizing, getting maybe a crossfire2 119... but sometimes get surprises on how fast I can get my Safire. Fast enough to get hurt.
I know I could fly safely a smaller and faster canopy, but the goal on flying a canopy IMO is not to get scared with it as soon as there is a little something troubling your plans... like : strong wind, turbulence, changing wind, outlanding, outlanding in hostile places, other canopies crossing etc etc etc...
my 2 cents, keep it and have fun. put a few hundred jumps on it, get some c oaching so you get to know your canopy better and really max it.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[craddock 0]

Not everyone takes a high interest in trying to out swoop the next person. My fiance has no interest in swooping at all. Does this mean she should still be jumping a Manta since the has never been able to outswoop or equal me under one?
Seems like kind of a pathatic rule for downsizing(since many people don't swoop), not that I have any opinion on this individual though

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[piisfish 140]

not really, but it seems the person who started the thread already has a "not soooo big" canopy, intermediate performance, and is looking to get a smaller and faster canopy... and with a quite low number of jumps... this is why I think Aggiedave suggested he outswooped better pilots on his canopy before going to something more radical.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Seems like kind of a pathatic rule for downsizing(since many people don't swoop), not that I have any opinion on this individual though

Chill out.

This person is obviously wanting to learn how to swoop. In this case, its a pretty good rule of thumb for the canopy he's on. Come on, use your damn head instead of getting self important and trying to shoot down what I said. Just try stepping up to the plate and helping someone out that is obviously trying to help keep someone else from being a statistic!

See, because of you and your post, instead of thinking "yeah, that's a good point, I'm really not flying this canopy yet" this person is could be thinking "that guy was full of shit, that craddock guy said so, so I can go ahead and downsize."

All because you refused to look at the big picture.

Thanks man. No, really, thanks.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kaerock 1]

To answer your question,
You have several options. Down-sizing is one of them. Changing the planiform is another. Many people feel that they can increase the performance of their canopy-time by trying, say, an elliptical canopy if they've been on a relatively square one. I suggest you demo as many canopies as you can at the same size as your current canopy as it will give you a good base upon which to judge these other canopies with. You will run into a problem with Canopy Nazis (as you can see) when trying a higher perfromance canopy at the same size even! Be ready. Some manufacturers put the limitation of minimum jump numbers in order to fly a specific canopy. But the canopies I'm most familiar with that I'd suggest would be a Stiletto, Samurai, Crossfire and such. Try as many as you can!

--Rory

Quote

OK...here's the thing. I currently have a Sabre2 135. I went from Lazer 250 to PD 190 to Esprit 170 to Sabre2 150 to Sabre 135 to Crossfire 149 to what I have now. So, my question is what canopy would you suggest I go to next. I know I want a 120 or close to that, but should I find another Sabre2 or go with something else. I'm thinking about an Alpha 120. Any suggestions you guys have would be greatly appreciated. Oh and right now I'm at a 1.26 wing loading and a 120 would put me at 1.42.
KW

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[Kimblair13 0]

OK Thanks guys for your input so far. Here's the thing...Part of me wanting to get a different canopy is $, (I need $ and I could sell my Sabre2 then buy a cheaper canopy) part of it is me wanting a smaller canopy, and part is people at me DZ telling me it's too big for me. Oh and I'm a she, not a he. Yes, eventually I'd like to be a good swooper, but later. The biggest thing is I need the money. Is that a real bad reason?
KW

[gmac324 0]

My advice would be sell the sabre2 and buy a safire/lotus/sabre or something else cheaper and similar performance at the same size if you are really short of cash.

Why do you want a smaller canopy?

Graeme

[piisfish 140]

well you say you got a 1.24 or something loading on a nice upper-intermediate canopy, which is already a "quite high" loading for your experience (if your profile is up to date). going to a 1.4 loading might work, but is certainly not safe.
is your goal to have a smaller canopy just to have a smaller rig ?? you'll need more $$$ then...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Kimblair13 0]

There is a canopy here at my DZ that I like. So I guess cuz it's local it seems easiest to get. It's an Impulse/Alpha 120. My rig is small enough...It's made for a canopy about this size...I think the previous person had a 108 in it...I had a 150 in it for a while.

[Kris 0]

Whomever is offering to sell you that canopy and whomever is telling you that your 135 is 'too big' is doing you a grave (pun intended) misservice.

You should really stick with the larger canopy.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[PhreeZone 20]

$ is a horrible reason to downsize. One trip to the ER is going to cost far more then a new canopy. If you need $, slow down the jumping for a bit and keep a reasonble sized canopy.

Look at the experience of the people telling you the Sabre2 is too large. Are they instructors? Are they watching every landing? Are they masters of their canopies? If they are the local "swoop god" but are never out there watching and coaching you on your canopy skills are they really intune with your needs and your skill level?

Are you able to really fly the canopy or are you still at the "hope I stand it up crosswind" instead of "I know I can stand up crosswind" stage? Knowling limits and your own skill level is a good starting point, but doing anything for $$ is not a good idea.

Also something you might consider (I'll take a lot of heat for this one I'm sure) is that the guys might be telling you anything you want to hear just for other reasons also. Guess what? Guys will lie about almost anything if it helps them get into a girls pants some times.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[superstu 0]

wut up everyone. just to let you guys know we watch probibly 85% her landings and she has had video of many of those as well. the people telling her she can down size are instructors, a couple of them have been to swoop competitions, and they know what they are talking about. NONE of us want to see kim get hurt or have "other" reasons for why she should downsize. kim is also doing the right thing on the ground and that is asking a ton of questions trying to get to know everything she can. she is progressing very rapidly but very safely from what we have all seen. she's very comfortable under that sabre2, but she's hasn't 'ringed' it out to the fullest. just letting you guys know what i've seen and think of her abilities from jumping with her and watching her land. see ya at the dz this weekend kim

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[nbblood 0]

This, from a guy on a Crossfire 97 loaded 1.9:1 with 623 jumps.......hhmmm....makes me think this:

Quote

Look at the experience of the people telling you the Sabre2 is too large. Are they instructors? Are they watching every landing? Are they masters of their canopies? If they are the local "swoop god" but are never out there watching and coaching you on your canopy skills are they really intune with your needs and your skill level?

or maybe you're applying your exceptional skill to every jumper.....frankly, I don't know.

Granted, the instructors you refer to probably have more experience, but this is an indicator. Sorry, man, but I gotta agree with Phreezone on this. Of course, I could be wrong, she may be an exceptional canopy pilot. I doubt, seriously, though, as many canopies as she's been through that she's actually given any one canopy a thorough run through of Billvon's Downsizing Checklist, a very useful tool, as previously posted.

I'm on a Sabre 2 at less than 1.2 to 1 with about 150 jumps on the canopy, have been through Billvon's checklist and I still want another 50-60 before I go down. Just meeting guidelines doesn't mean you have to downsize.

Kim, I don't know you or how you fly your canopy, but I encourage you to err on the side of safety. You can trade/sell the Sabre2 and get a less expensive comparable canopy if money is an issue. Just don't make your decisions on safety based on $$ or convenience.

Just my .02 and, yes, I have less experience than the other posters.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[Nullified 0]

Quote

I doubt, seriously, though, as many canopies as she's been through that she's actually given any one canopy a thorough run through of Billvon's Downsizing Checklist, a very useful tool, as previously posted.

Nathan, this isn't directed towards you, but to anyone and everyone in general.
Bill's checklist is a beautiful thing, but it's important to remember that it should be approached as more than just a simple, "Done this, done that" checklist.
Just because you've performed all of those tasks one or several times intentionally under good conditions doesn't necessarily mean that the skills have been "Learned". I think a better indication would be, how many times the shit has hit the fan and you've successfully pulled off the tasks on Bill's "Checklist".
I know that it's unrealistic to sit around waiting for the shit to hit the fan over and over, but I think you understand the point I'm trying to make.
Plenty of people have performed those tasks, and still, when they're faced with a surprise situation which requires them to utilize those skills to save their ass, they brainfart.
Flying a canopy is such a beautiful and dynamic experience, and just when you think a particular canopy's performance range has been exhausted, you'll find some other way to challenge and enjoy yourself with it. Don't rush through the experiences, you'll miss out on more than you realize, and you'll be cheating yourself.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[TALONSKY 0]

Hi Kim, ultimately the choice to down size is yours. The only suggestion I would offer is listen to the instructors that watch you land, and get more than one person’s opinion. If they and you feel comfortable with the change go for, but just remember that this kind of change may seem small but it just may in the wrong conditions be the choice between a bruise or hospital ride or maybe worse.
I personally was wing loading 1.5 to 1 at 135 jumps and did great with it, but that is not the safest route or one I would suggest to follow.
Oh and to answer your question, I would suggest if you are going to down size to not change to a fully elliptical yet, but stay with a semi elliptical
Kirk

[nbblood 0]

Mike,
Yes, absolutely agree. I think that was the point I was trying to make, but you made it better.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[superstu 0]

hey nbblood what was your intention when bringing my jump numbers and canopy choice into this discussion?

Quote

This, from a guy on a Crossfire 97 loaded 1.9:1 with 623 jumps.......hhmmm....makes me think this:

or maybe you're applying your exceptional skill to every jumper.....frankly, I don't know.

i was simply stating the facts, the things that i posted were not my opinion. jump numbers don't mean too much when just looking at the numbers, one has to look at the whole the picture from what kind of dz we jump at, to the skills i know she has and does not have, to how current she is. the individual pilot is what is important. this information is what i was trying to give you guys in my post so you could give better advice.

also, i agree with you on billvon's "check list", however as you know progression is different for everyone. so what some might see as a quick/ dangerous progression, others will see it as being slow. but again it's all based on the individual pilots perception.

lastly, i don't like the idea that people ask or give advice on what type of canopy they should get. more likely than not 99% of us have never seen the person, let alone seen them fly.

these are just my .02
be safe

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[nbblood 0]

Quote

hey nbblood what was your intention when bringing my jump numbers and canopy choice into this discussion?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This, from a guy on a Crossfire 97 loaded 1.9:1 with 623 jumps.......hhmmm....makes me think this:

or maybe you're applying your exceptional skill to every jumper.....frankly, I don't know.

Merely, that you had apparently downsized quickly based on your skills and MAY be applying your experience to her situation......nothing more than that. I didn't mean to imply at all that the situation is not suitable.

Quote

i was simply stating the facts, the things that i posted were not my opinion. jump numbers don't mean too much when just looking at the numbers, one has to look at the whole the picture from what kind of dz we jump at, to the skills i know she has and does not have, to how current she is. the individual pilot is what is important. this information is what i was trying to give you guys in my post so you could give better advice.

also, i agree with you on billvon's "check list", however as you know progression is different for everyone. so what some might see as a quick/ dangerous progression, others will see it as being slow. but again it's all based on the individual pilots perception.

lastly, i don't like the idea that people ask or give advice on what type of canopy they should get. more likely than not 99% of us have never seen the person, let alone seen them fly.

I agree with all that. I stated, that I have no idea how she flies at all and I want to very clearly state that I am certainly not the one to judge what canopy is suitable. I merely presented options, not specific canopy choices.

I'm just thinking that it sounds a little early, based on the norm. It appears as you quickly downsized as well. I'm just trying to say, just because you downsized quickly, doesn't necessarily mean that she is ready. Of course it doesn't mean she isn't ready either. Nothing more than that.

Again, I have NO IDEA how she flies her canopy, just offering an opinion. No offense intended whatsoever. Of course, you know better than I do, I just worry she may be encouraged to downsize before she's ready. Particulary since there was not mention of what she can and cannot do, other than landings that you posted (a small part, albeit the most important part of canopy flight).

Finally, she made a statement that indicated she was considering a canopy based on price and convenience. There is no way those should be top considerations for making a canopy choice IMHO.

Again, I don't mean to imply that I know....because I don't. Just offering indicators and options. No offense intended.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[kaerock 1]

If you don't know how she flies, or what her actual skill level is, why bother saying anything at all?

Let me make the assumptions about you that you have made about her:
Based upon your jump numbers, what you fly, how long you've been in the sport versus my having more jumps than you, flying faster than you and have been in the sport longer, you don't have enough jumps to know anything, much less tell anyone what they should be doing.

Rather silly assertion, isn't it? You may think I've blown it out of proportion, but this really is the image that is being conveyed when people go off on these Canopy Nazi Diatribes (CND).

You are contributing to a massive problem with this forum, making unfounded, highly subjective statements. Statements about what you think strangers should be doing will not help them actually learn, not to mention not answering their question. It will drive people away and seek help from other places thereby lessening the potential this forum has. Perhaps if you don't actually have anything to add to the topic being discussed, read, observe, listen, rather than speak, assert and fumble.

So I have a suggestion directed to the general posters. Ask first before you assert based upon profile information. Give people the benefit of the doubt, suggest, don't assert. Greeting people with hostility based upon your personal fears does not help. I'd love to come to this forum and be greeted with intelligent, factual, actual information rather than CNDs. I'm SO tired of people whining about how someone else is going to kill themselves because they haven't followed the same progression as said CDNer. Disagreement is good, progress is made through struggle, but lets stick to the matter at hand, and leave the rants for another forum.

Simply:
If you have nothing intelligent to add, sit down and shut up, I do it all the time.

Toodles!
-Rory

Quote

Quote

hey nbblood what was your intention when bringing my jump numbers and canopy choice into this discussion?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This, from a guy on a Crossfire 97 loaded 1.9:1 with 623 jumps.......hhmmm....makes me think this:

or maybe you're applying your exceptional skill to every jumper.....frankly, I don't know.

Merely, that you had apparently downsized quickly based on your skills and MAY be applying your experience to her situation......nothing more than that. I didn't mean to imply at all that the situation is not suitable.

Quote

i was simply stating the facts, the things that i posted were not my opinion. jump numbers don't mean too much when just looking at the numbers, one has to look at the whole the picture from what kind of dz we jump at, to the skills i know she has and does not have, to how current she is. the individual pilot is what is important. this information is what i was trying to give you guys in my post so you could give better advice.

also, i agree with you on billvon's "check list", however as you know progression is different for everyone. so what some might see as a quick/ dangerous progression, others will see it as being slow. but again it's all based on the individual pilots perception.

lastly, i don't like the idea that people ask or give advice on what type of canopy they should get. more likely than not 99% of us have never seen the person, let alone seen them fly.

I agree with all that. I stated, that I have no idea how she flies at all and I want to very clearly state that I am certainly not the one to judge what canopy is suitable. I merely presented options, not specific canopy choices.

I'm just thinking that it sounds a little early, based on the norm. It appears as you quickly downsized as well. I'm just trying to say, just because you downsized quickly, doesn't necessarily mean that she is ready. Of course it doesn't mean she isn't ready either. Nothing more than that.

Again, I have NO IDEA how she flies her canopy, just offering an opinion. No offense intended whatsoever. Of course, you know better than I do, I just worry she may be encouraged to downsize before she's ready. Particulary since there was not mention of what she can and cannot do, other than landings that you posted (a small part, albeit the most important part of canopy flight).

Finally, she made a statement that indicated she was considering a canopy based on price and convenience. There is no way those should be top considerations for making a canopy choice IMHO.

Again, I don't mean to imply that I know....because I don't. Just offering indicators and options. No offense intended.

Blues,
Nathan

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE