masterrigger1 2 #26 May 27, 2004 Gee, We are getting alot closer in the coating area...and if and when that happens we will have canopies that will be cheaper to maintain for crying out loud!! We will soon be testing some other "stuff" for lines also. It is nice to have a chemist on the DZ here! (works for the company that manufactures Technora fibers). On another note....Is anyone else out there aware of the fabric availability problem from Preformance Textiles? It seems that the EPA has intervined and is causing havoc in the production of SoarCoat fabric. Has anyone else heard this? Blue ones, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #27 May 27, 2004 Oh come on now. If you're going to suport the Vectran side of the argument you've got to come up with something. Vectran has not had just about as much "proof" about it's durabilities and properties as HMA/Technora. The fact of the matter neither product has any data showing it is better or worse for the application. Compaies desire to limit liabilit has more to do with wether a new material is accepted or not. Speculation and roumor are doing more disservice. I stand by my statement that in a jump for jump evaluation from my vantage point in the industry Vectran linests have had a higher jump vs. failure ratio. YMMV.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #28 May 27, 2004 QuoteOn another note....Is anyone else out there aware of the fabric availability problem from Preformance Textiles? It seems that the EPA has intervined and is causing havoc in the production of SoarCoat fabric. Has anyone else heard this? I do know of a fabric avaliability problem, but it was not atributed to the EPA, but a fire that broke out at Performance Textiles.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeeeeeeFly 0 #29 May 27, 2004 QuoteOn another note....Is anyone else out there aware of the fabric availability problem from Preformance Textiles? It seems that the EPA has intervined and is causing havoc in the production of SoarCoat fabric. Wyatt told me of a fire in the fabric wherehouse. Thus creating delays in the production of my VX... Thanks MEL I will have to call you up and have some more discusions regarding line sets... ~G~ "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #30 May 28, 2004 Can you elaborate on this? Do they have their canopies trimmed steeper or flatter or what? I had sort of wondered about this - especially with all the hands off moves they're pulling. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #31 May 28, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is PA now doing the brake lines in dacron if they believe it to not be a problem? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pressure of public perception. There are still a few manufacturers using HMA/Technora control line with no problem. That seems like a flimsy way for PA to support the "testing" they have done to change their pollicy due to a hasty public perception. I figured they would stick with their technical findings. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #32 May 28, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . I also have read on here of at least one who broke a steering line with I believe under 250 jumps on a canopy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And I believe the steering line in question had been shown to have been replaced with the incorrect weight/size line. HMA Incident Was this the incident where he had replaced the lines with the wrong one or was this the original lines. Also it says in that post that the packer had seen that the lines were out of trim and was going to tell him. I wonder what that meant. How would yo see an out of trim brake line during a normal pack job and why would HMA be out of trim. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #33 May 28, 2004 clicky I witnessed several lines break on a xaos during a bigway meet. I never heard anything from the incident as to cause. ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #34 May 28, 2004 QuoteMy beliefs are that while HMA has less drag, the continous linesets (more lines) add sufficient drag to almost (or maybe entirely?) nullify the speed benefits of the line type. Not facts I can back up, just my thoughts. My thought is, how much drag can the change actually remove? How many canopy pilots in the world would really actually and truely need that little less drag? My thought would be under 10, if that many. If that's such a big deal, why aren't swoopers wearing full on body speed suits like speed skaters or bobsleders? I'm sure that would make the difference too, if the lines truely made that much difference between the two fairly small line materials.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skynole 0 #35 May 28, 2004 QuoteMy thought is, how much drag can the change actually remove? How many canopy pilots in the world would really actually and truely need that little less drag? I thought this too, but talking with the PD team they said that of all things they've done to reduce drag (RDS, clothing, body position, etc.), switching to HMA has been the most noticeable difference. But like you said, the reduction in drag is really only that beneficial for the top swoopers. Technique is 95% of the swoop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #36 May 28, 2004 QuoteI thought this too, but talking with the PD team they said that of all things they've done to reduce drag (RDS, clothing, body position, etc.), switching to HMA has been the most noticeable difference. Yep - but they cascade their HMA lines so there's a difference in drag compared to the vectran. The continous line sets using HMA IMO offer little to no drag advantage because there are more lines. See you in 2 weeks dude!! Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raymod2 1 #37 May 29, 2004 QuoteThe continous line sets using HMA IMO offer little to no drag advantage because there are more lines. There's a difference between opinion and speculation, in that the latter is even more worthless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #38 May 30, 2004 QuoteI know of at least 1 person (know him personally) who had just over/under 300 jumps on his xaos and had his HMA brake line snap with no warning. If this happened on landing it may have been the case of yet another xaos pilot in hospital or worse because of unexpected line breakage. What you are implying here is really unfair. There have been cases of Dacron, Nylon, Kevlar, Spectra, and Vectran lines breaking unexpectedly. I can't think of any line I've seen used that hasn't had incidents of unexpected breakage. Just do a search of these forums or the old rec. skydiving ng, you'll find at least one guy (Peter?) who ended up with a broken femur due to an unecpected failure of a Vectran brakeline during a landing approach. Same old, same old. When it was first introduced to the US market we had to hear over and over of the few isolated failures. Why do they fail? A manufacturing defect. An uneven load during deployment. Improper fingertrapping. Hidden wear. Overlooked or hidden damage (someone steps on the line while it is on the packing floor which also has a small, rough piece of gravel on it or it got pinched in a door or trunk hood). There can be many reasons and they may even overlap. When will a line fail? At any time, even good old reliable Dacron. Why? It just depends on the combination of events that puts it into the failure mode in the first place. So, how can you tell when to replace your lines? No method is fool proof. Any line can break without showing visible signs of wear. Complying with the manufacturers' recommendations and instructions are a good start, which usually include inspecting the lines during packing. Careful packing, as per instructions also can help. A slight packing error that inadvertantly and inconspicuously puts a heavy load on one line can damage it during opening enough that it fails later in the flight. Is either Vectran or Technora better or worse than the other? I don't really know, but I do know that annecdotal evidence of failures like you describe can be found for the lines your prefer. Would I prefer lines that I could just look at and know if they need replacing? Yes, but they just don't exist, at least to the degree of accuracy that some people seem to expect. I've had Vectran lines that "looked" like they needed replacing after less than 200 jumps. I replaced that after more than 500 or so. What does that mean? Not much, other than that set of lines, under the conditions that I used them, lasted more than 500 jumps. Why did the brakeline snap in the case of the person you know personally? I don't know and I suggest that you don't either. Was it because HMA is inferior or due to UV exposure? I don't know. Was it due to a quirk (more twists than the other one or a friction knot) in packing that loaded it more heavily during opening? I don't know. I don't think anyone does. Technora is susceptable to UV degradation. So is Nylon. The question is how much and how fast, especially in comparison to the other components. Is 300 jumps enough for too much UV exposure? I don't know. Did the jumper get it wet and hang it in the sun to dry? More than once? I don't know, but in this case maybe you do. The point is it is annecdotal and that leaves us with a lot of unanwered questions. I apologize for the lenthy reply, but it is raining here and I just don't have anything else to do.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #39 May 31, 2004 If you have something worthwhile to contribute, feel free - till then your post is as worthless as you imply my opinion is. Hypocrisy, look it up.Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #40 May 31, 2004 Hi Alan, QuoteWhat you are implying here is really unfair. There have been cases of Dacron, Nylon, Kevlar, Spectra, and Vectran lines breaking unexpectedly. I can't think of any line I've seen used that hasn't had incidents of unexpected breakage. Sorry I'm not trying to "imply" anything but I just happen to know of more cases of HMA lines failing within the manufacturers specs than other line types. It's quite possible that the only reason for this is because of "sensationalism" due to the fact that HMA lines tend to be on higher performing canopies where brake line breakages at speed have dire results. QuoteWhy did the brakeline snap in the case of the person you know personally? I don't know and I suggest that you don't either. Was it because HMA is inferior or due to UV exposure? I don't know. Was it due to a quirk (more twists than the other one or a friction knot) in packing that loaded it more heavily during opening? I don't know. I don't think anyone does. I agree - neither he nor I know. What we do know is that the canopy was packed indoors more often than not and that the lines were checked that very day with no apparent indication of failure. He did, however, get the canopy wet a few weeks before at a contest and the canopy was left hanging indoors to dry. Could that have hastened the failure...probably but my point isn't that HMA is bad, but rather not as "robust" (is any line type?) than some manufacturers claim. QuoteThe point is it is annecdotal and that leaves us with a lot of unanwered questions. I apologize for the lenthy reply, but it is raining here and I just don't have anything else to do. The note is certainly appreciated. I don't think any of us here claim to have all the answers. Sometimes "shit" just happens. So far though, in experiences I've heard of and witnessed, it just seems to happen more often with HMA. Hope it stops raining Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #41 June 1, 2004 Right indeed about not having all the answers. All I can say to my opinions is if a manufacturer claims a line to be far superior to others available and shows no proof of testing or fact, I will just wait and see what happens in real world testing. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #42 June 2, 2004 re: HMA... Mel, Our team guys get 1000+ jumps on their HMA linesets in ELOY,ARIZONA. (Home of UVa and UVb!) The UV/HMA stories have not been proven by anyone and I do believe that our actual experience dispells the myth. But Back to the X-VX/X-FX Mod.... These mods do NOT make the canopies a Xaos. The airfoils are entirely different. The purpose was to help some of our previous customers who had purchased Fx's and Vx's from us enjoy the evolution of crossbrace without having to replace a canopy which still has long fabric life remaining. I.E. a cheap way to improve the characteristics of their current canopy at a very reasonable cost. Chris Precision Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #43 June 2, 2004 Chris, Are you saying that the team guys go 1000+ jumps without replacing even the brake lines (assuming you use HMA for them)? Blue ones, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #44 June 2, 2004 They replaced the HMA 430 kg lower control lines at about 600 jumps... We now use 400 lb. Dacron and it has been lasting as long as the entire lineset...(1000+ jumps) Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #45 June 2, 2004 Chris, There is no myth as you quoted! A simple email to the manufacturer from anyone(anyone care to please!)regarding UV damage to Technora.Technora is a cousin to nylon, and we all know what sunlight does to nylon. As far as the number of jumps (1000) in the desert! I would not want to be under a 340 lb. Technora lined canopy with 1000 Eloy jumps. I also thought your Team guys are mostly in Washington and Georgia? Dacron was a smart move on the brake lines though! Please call me if you care to discuss any of this in detail. Blue ones, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #46 June 2, 2004 QuoteI also thought your Team guys are mostly in Washington and Georgia?I know at least two team guys are in Eloy."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #47 June 2, 2004 I figured some where there, but did not know if all of them had moved there! Good place to jump! BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #48 June 2, 2004 QuoteThere is no myth as you quoted! A simple email to the manufacturer from anyone(anyone care to please!)regarding UV damage to Technora.Technora is a cousin to nylon, and we all know what sunlight does to nylon. Not only do you have your facts wrong Mel, but your comparison is weak. Cordura is a cousin to ZP but we don't build containers out of it. QuoteAs far as the number of jumps (1000) in the desert! I would not want to be under a 340 lb. Technora lined canopy with 1000 Eloy jumps. I also thought your Team guys are mostly in Washington and Georgia? Hmmmm, well if you'd been keeping up with the "Team Xaos" you'd know Jeff Provanzano lives in Eloy as well as TJ Langren. Both have 1000's of Xaos Jumps. I too have well over 1500 jumps on Xaos canopies, and more than 800 on one canopy in particular. The canopy is on it's original lineset, and has no trim issues, nor do the lines need replacing anytime soon. It has had 2 sets of control lines, as I replace them every 300 to 400 jumps no matter what line type. I think your "local" source of information is not accurate.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeeeeeeFly 0 #49 June 2, 2004 QuoteNot only do you have your facts wrong Mel, but your comparison is weak. Cordura is a cousin to ZP but we don't build containers out of it. http://composite.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.teijin-aramid.com%2FENG%2Faramid_fiber.htm I love it when people have no idea about what they are talking about especially when they go out and attack someone who does know... QuoteI think your "local" source of information is not accurate. Why don't you pick up a chemistry book and start reading... Or you can just do quick look at the link above... ~G~ "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #50 June 2, 2004 Quotehttp://composite.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.teijin-aramid.com%2FENG%2Faramid_fiber.htm I love it when people have no idea about what they are talking about especially when they go out and attack someone who does know... You are realy showing your ass now. Mel stated: QuoteTechnora is a cousin to nylon, and we all know what sunlight does to nylon. which is flawed thinking. So we are now to assume that all nylon, nylon derivitives, and "cousins" to nylon have exactly the same properties? QuoteWhy don't you pick up a chemistry book and start reading... Or you can just do quick look at the link above... Funny you should try to throw that link back at me since you dismissed it as propoganda a few days ago. What makes you so sure you or Mel know what your talking about? Have you any actual experience with the line? Or are you just an Icarus suporter (since you used that tactic earlier). Did you know that the Icaruse factory team at perris has been using HMA on their canopies with no problems? I understand the information you've provided. You have not shown any real world experience as to why it is unsutible for this application, you're just running around screaming "the sky is falling". We had a discusion going her, try to remain civil. Oh ,and think man, think.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
