REAL CANOPY COMPARATIVE DATA > SZ 120-135/139-150

[benforde 0]

REAL CANOPY COMPARATIVE DATA > Sz 120-135/139-150

I contacted the USPA, specifically Parachutist Mag. then was sent to Parachute Industry Association... hoping to find a way to get a real comparative "road test" between canopies, wing loading and manufacturers.
Something not sponsored and full of marketing fluff, giving like people real data to work with when it's that time for shopping again... According to everybody, it would cost too much and be all around too complicated to organize. So really there is no chance to compile data from test flying major canopies across there most popular wing loading? I guess not.

So I'll stick to what I would like to know...
and ask you if you have flown/tested these to give us a personal idea, and point of view on openings, flying, riser pressure, and landing comparing the following: Stiletto, Crossfire, Crossfire2, Vengeance... wanted to know about the Katana, but the bigger size are not available yet.

Also, it's would be important to write down you experience level, so that if you are sponsored by a team with 12000 jumps on the pro swoop tour, we can understand where some of the comments come from...
Hopefully, this will go somewhere...

Bluskyz

—benforde

[Professor 0]

Alright, this might be interesting. I'll use the stiletto as a baseline. My experience: 750ish jumps, almost 500 on a stiletto 120 @~ 1.9, (dumb, I know). Other stuff:

Crossfire 2:
flown: 119 (5 jumps), 109 (2 jumps)
Openings: very nice, soft and progressive, but it seemed somewhat less tolerant of pilot body position errors than the stiletto. Throw stable.
Toggles: similar to the stiletto, slightly more responsive
front risers: much less riser pressure
Easier to keep in a dive, and will build up a lot more speed than the stiletto. Doesn't do the auto-flare/'positive recovery arc' thing the stiletto does. Good bottom end lift. Very good swooper. Best HP canopy I've flown

Cobalt:
flown: 2 or 3 120's, probably 20-30 jumps. 2 150's, probably 10 jumps
openings: Seems more unpredictable than my stiletto, and more sensitive to packing. Opens great sometimes, thrashes sometimes, pops sometimes. No slammers yet.
toggles: Slower response than the stiletto. A cobalt w/ short brake lines feels like a stiletto w/ medium/long brake lines. spins just as fast, maybe a little faster.
Front risers: lower pressure than the stiletto, but more than the XF2.
Better diver than the stiletto, but not as good as the XF2. Lots of bottom end lift. Good swooper, but I'm not a huge fan of cobalts.

Nitro/Nitron:
flown: Nitron 135 twice, Nitro 108 once
toggles: less toggle pressure than the stiletto, similar response.
Risers: Similar pressure and dive to the cobalt.
I didn't really get much chance to fly Either of these. The ones I flew seemed nice, but nothing special. Not as much bottom end as I'd like, probably about the same as the stiletto. Decent swooper.

That's my opinions. But I'm right

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.

[tattoojeff 0]

vengeance 120. w/l 1.6 400+ jumps

veng is a diving machine made rigid by airlock technology resulting in a lot of lift especialy at the bottom of the flare. the veng has the longest recovery arc in its class. in order to swoop this canopy correctly you need to learn how to get it diving. there are many different ways.and 400 jumps later i still have a ton of speed and technique to unlock. its a great stepping stone to a velocity or x-braced canopy.

the airlocks cut through turbulence like a knife. very often i hear other jumpers commenting on how bumpy the air is, even staying grounded due to turbulant conditions which i never felt under the veng. once you learn how to deflate and finnese the downed canopy its never been an issue until winds are up near 18 mph. then the canopy doesnt want to deflate. so if your filming tandems at a windy dz. this is not a good choice in canopy.

openings- veng get a bad rap when it comes to openings. end cell closer was the norm for a lot of jumps causing 180's. it took me a hundred jumps or so to dial in my pack job. now i average 8 out of ten on heading within 45 degrees, and have never chopped. although if your a skidish skydiver i may not recomend this canopy. some rear riser wrestling is nessasary at times. also this canopy has never slammed me or opened hard.

[fool 0]

not to hijack the thread, could you send me a PM and describe your technique of deflating it? I tried PM'ing this to you, but it said I couldn't.

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[tattoojeff 0]

gladly, assuming your landing into the wind. as the canopy is falling behind you turn 180 so the canopy is standing on its nose with the tail in the air. now walk tword it to allow slack in the lines and the canopy will lay flat upside down with the nose facing you. this will unlock the locks and the parachute will begin to deflate. i usually stow my brakes and slider while this is happening. now daisy chain the lines all the way to the stabilizers and spin the canopy 90 to the right so the nose is now on your left hand side. then i just grab the top end cell and compress the canopy endcell to endcell and the rest of the air will push out and you can now walk back to the packing area with out looking like your carrying an air mattress.
goodluck. ps. how do you like your vengeance?

[jose 0]

Jeff,

I am considering either the Vengance or the Samurai in the future. Have you flown a Samurai before? If so, how does the Vengance stack up against it performance wise? I like the characteristics that you stated on the Vengance and flying a Lotus right now, I am looking to stay in the airlocked canopy class for good. Like you said, when they are commenting on turbulence, I am thinking.....oh yeah....airlocks kick ass. I feel nothing, nice and stable.

If anyone here flies a 120 Samurai, please post your thoughts on it.

[tattoojeff 0]

hey jose, no ive never flown a samurai but have heard good things about them. what are you currently flying, and are you already making performance landings? the reason i ask is the long recovery arc can be tricky to learn swooping on from the begining. im speaking from expierience having spanked into the ground last year.
i really cant say enough great things about the vengeance. demo one asap.
blues bro

[fool 0]

I really like the vengeance so far. I've only got about 20 jumps on it, so I don't know it super well, but I've finally gotten used to the different flare from the stiletto, and things are looking up. I took Brian Germain's canopy seminar, and that helped too. I love flying it, and am looking very much forward to playing with it for a long time. I personally love the dive... that's one of the reasons I got that canopy, and it certainly doesn't disappoint. It leaves a lot more control I find.

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[fool 0]

I put some jumps on a Samurai 120 before I got my stiletto. Not many, but enough to form a bit of an opinion. Flying that canopy was almost like it was controled with thought. It just seemed to do exactly what I wanted it to. I would have gotten one of them, but went with the vengeance for financial reasons. To this point, I'm glad I did so far, but still in ways wonder what the Sam in the same size would be like.

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[jurgencamps 0]

<< the airlocks cut through turbulence like a knife. very often i hear other jumpers commenting on how bumpy the air is, even staying grounded due to turbulant conditions which i never felt under the veng
<<

Even very big airplanes "feel" the turbulence. With or without airlocks you still feel the turbulence.

Jurgen C (1200 jumps on a vengeance 120)

[tattoojeff 0]

i re-read my post and see your point.
i never said i dont feel ANY turbulence, of coarse i feel some, im staing its significantly less than other non airlocked canopys, ie sabers specters, even stilletos at times. do you disagree?

[TALONSKY 0]

Quote

the veng has the longest recovery arc in its class. .

Hey Jeff, have you ever compared a Veng. to a Crossfire 2. I only have a few jumps on a Veng. but it was my impression that the Crossfire 2 dove more.
I personally do not have a wide range of comparisons of canopies but I can say my Crossfire 2 loaded at 1.7 dive almost as much as my VX loaded at 2 that is atleast in a 180° turn.
Kirk

[tattoojeff 0]

i flew a crossfire 2 larger than my veng so its hard for me to say which dives longer. the xrsfire does have a nice long recovery arc. im just going by pd's info on their web site. that may have been made before the xrssfire2 came out. however kirk if you feel theres no difference diving the xrss2 and vx loaded higher i think your not getting the vx as steep as it should be.
blueskies brudda
jeff

[TALONSKY 0]

Well there is no doubt that I am not wringing my VX out totally since I only have 50 jumps on it (And I don’t even try to pretend to be one of the hot shot swoopers). However starting with a harness turn and adding front risers it take approx. 430 feet to plan out. The same 180° done on my Crossfire 2 with just front risers takes approx. 410-420 feet to plan out. My heights are taken over at least 10 jumps checking off of my Sunnto Vector watch which I feel is about as accurate as any aliti will ever be that low to the ground(oh I do not use it soully just to back up what I see visually) I have talked to others that went from a Crossfire to a Velocity and said the recovery arcs were almost the same.
Kirk

[diveout 0]

You gotta man-handle that VX into a dive so it takes like 500 or 550 feet on a 180 (That's what I'd do). I've seen Jason Peters and Dusty Smith start from pretty deep brakes and then crank on both fronts before starting to turn. I thing the Icaurs canopies like to start from deeper brakes than a velocity, for example.

[beavdog 0]

I agree with that....I have almost 100 jumps on my xf2 and I can get it to dive almost 500 feet going from a single front riser 180 to double fronts....the best way I have found is to set up about half brakes or slightly farther.it allows me to get the turn started easily with light front riser pressure and keeps it from building up so much.

Here's to the Breezes that blows through the Trezzez.....

[TALONSKY 0]

I will keep that in mind and start working on it. I did at first try that but it just did not seem to work that well for me. I find that after a little hip input the front riser pressure is more managable so that's what I have started to do.
Thanks for the tip

I find it interesting even though I may not be getting the most dive out of each canopy the data from Diveout and Beavdog seem to also show that the Crossfire 2 has a close to same recovery arch as a VX. As Dan stated 500-550 for the VX and Beavdog stated 500 on the Crossfire 2.
Kirk

[diveout 0]

I'd like to see the same turn on the same size (XF2 vs VX) made by the same pilot- or the pilot and his evil twin with the same turn to really see how it works. I can see the vx coming back to a flat glide quick once that riser pressure builds.

[TALONSKY 0]

Quote

I'd like to see the same turn on the same size (XF2 vs VX) made by the same pilot- or the pilot and his evil twin with the same turn to really see how it works. I can see the vx coming back to a flat glide quick once that riser pressure builds.

I agree, now by no means am I saying a Crossfire 2 can swoop like a VX just dive close to it or as close as possible for a non crossbraced.
Hey Dan, not that it would be a totally accurate comparison but if you fly a 120 Xaos 21, I have a 130 Crossfire 2 maybe sometime when you do not have anything better to do you could fly it and give your impression of the dive of Crossfire 2.
Kirk

[diveout 0]

my xaos is actually a 125, so it would be even closer