flyhi 24 #1 August 19, 2004 Once it's open, I love my Vengeance. It flies well, turns crisply, and has a lot of bottom-end performance. But the openings suck. In the last two weeks I have had line twists, diving turns, a hard opening, and several real nice snivelly ones. Everytime I reach back there, it's another possible, "Hello Mr Toad" experience. And some of them are x-citing. I have had turns where the only way to stop them is to unstow the brakes and use toggle input. This means before stowing the slider which makes for a pretty busy trip down (unstow brakes, stop turn, check jumpsuit for bio-hazard, bring slider down past unstowed brakes, collapse slider, stow slider, all the time looking for traffic and trying to head back to the DZ.). Not to mention the altitude it eats up before you get the turn stopped. I have tried the usual fixes; adjust the harness, untwist the brake lines, readjust the brake lines, change the brake lines,... The question I put before the committee is; What flies like a Vengeance, but doesn't open like a Vengeance? I heard a Katana is the same planform and has very similar flight characteristics, but I am not sure I want to downsize to a 120 from a 135, yet. Anyone have any suggestions? Oh yeah, and does anyone want to buy a really nice Vengeance 135, new brake lines, 400 jumps, and really flies smoothly?Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #2 August 19, 2004 Well they fly better than a vengence but with alot better openings Crossfire 2. Most inputs are similar but the Crossfire 2 I feel dives farther. If you can you should try one. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
x3mcam 0 #3 August 19, 2004 You grab your risers during deployment/the snivel? I stopped after 500 more or less non consistent openings on a 107 Vengeance..... Look there! it started behaving!! Just steer with harness input and - Voila! Thomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #4 August 19, 2004 The Blade from HiPer.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sabr190 0 #5 August 19, 2004 How many jumps do you have on it? How do you pack it? I noticed you said new brake lines, what about the rest of the lines?. From what I hear the Vengeance gets real unpredictable when it is out of trim. I have 450ish on my Vengeance 135 and only have problems when I create them, like trying to steer the opening with the risers, rushed packed jobs, ect. "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyhi 24 #6 August 19, 2004 QuoteYou grab your risers during deployment/the snivel? I only get on my risers after it is open and if it starts its turn. Those are funny (oh-oh funny, not ha-ha funny) openings, too, because they appear to be opening very nicely and it's just about fully open on heading when, wham it starts a very high speed turn. Harness input is insufficient to stop it, and if I don't get immediately on risers, I have to go to toggle input. If I let it build for one or two seconds, it is really whipping. I have 400 jumps on it and have not had it fully relined, just new brake lines. This is the second Vengeance PD sent me. The first one I sent back and they looked at it, jumped it, adjusted it, relined it, and then asked what I wanted instead.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #7 August 19, 2004 QuoteThe Blade from HiPer. That's a nice flying canopy. I jumped their 108 at WFFC. Surfed the whole pond. Sweet! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites amir1967 0 #8 August 19, 2004 Hi Myself I was always on the rear riser ready for counter steer (canopy open slider down and there it goes to diving to the right - left rear riser yenk once and the canopy flies strait) but then if it would do 360° I would be 600 700 ft lower and if I open at 2500 or so I would be under my reserve hard deck So I phoned PD send them the canopy they tested it replaced line set and jumped it again,then they mailed me that my Veng was still open in a slow turn and that from a PD test pilot so I left it there and now I have Sabre2 which is not as much fun but the opening are beter. I didnt look at your wingload but my is 1.4 on the 170 and one spinning mal where I pitch at 5000 and have opening (protrack) 3800 ft on the reserve and the all thing was 4-5 second pitch,open.diving and spinning on my back,look reach look pool reach pull reseve. made me take a good look at downsizing any thurther any time soon. Maybe a good point to add to the list befor downsizing is spinning mal on current canopy.AM67 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ramon 0 #9 August 19, 2004 I have a few humdred jumps on a ven 135 loaded at about 1.65. I never had any hard openeings except from really horrible pack jobs. Im used to canopies that turn much worse on opening so to me the vengeance 's off heading openings are rather mild. If you like the way it flies you will like a katana and it opens a little better. I jumped one loaded at 2.0 it opened great (basically on heading) and it dove hard like a vengeance. You could also try a competition cobalt 120 it has a flatter glide than a vengeance but the riser pressure is lighter so you can hold it in a dive longer. ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #10 August 19, 2004 Crossfire 2 or Katana. Katana should be in 135 pretty soon (as well as a 150). It's actually a more aggressive/responsive canopy than the Vengeance. Crossfire 2 has sweet ass openings (sweet ass openings?), nice riser pressure (both front and rear), dives very well, and has a ton of bottom end. I have to disagree with my good friend TALONSKY and say that the Katana dives more than the Crossfire 2 (it damn near has a negative recovery arc), but the Crossfire 2 is a very nice canopy -- it's a swooping machine with very soft, consistent, on-heading openings. For non-crossbraced ellipticals, I think these two canopies are the best. I've flown both with a wingsuit, which is very demanding on openings. I like the Katana more in general (and now own one), but the Crossfire 2 has, IMO, better opening characteristics. LouDiamond posted this link to the Firebolt's opening. I don't know what it flies like, but it might be worth a demo. I need to rip some video of Katana openings whilst flying a wingsuit. It's been very, very nice to me. It's all body position. "¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kaerock 1 #11 August 19, 2004 Try a Samurai..9-cell ellipitcal air-lock done right :> -R QuoteOnce it's open, I love my Vengeance. It flies well, turns crisply, and has a lot of bottom-end performance. But the openings suck. In the last two weeks I have had line twists, diving turns, a hard opening, and several real nice snivelly ones. Everytime I reach back there, it's another possible, "Hello Mr Toad" experience. And some of them are x-citing. I have had turns where the only way to stop them is to unstow the brakes and use toggle input. This means before stowing the slider which makes for a pretty busy trip down (unstow brakes, stop turn, check jumpsuit for bio-hazard, bring slider down past unstowed brakes, collapse slider, stow slider, all the time looking for traffic and trying to head back to the DZ.). Not to mention the altitude it eats up before you get the turn stopped. I have tried the usual fixes; adjust the harness, untwist the brake lines, readjust the brake lines, change the brake lines,... The question I put before the committee is; What flies like a Vengeance, but doesn't open like a Vengeance? I heard a Katana is the same planform and has very similar flight characteristics, but I am not sure I want to downsize to a 120 from a 135, yet. Anyone have any suggestions? Oh yeah, and does anyone want to buy a really nice Vengeance 135, new brake lines, 400 jumps, and really flies smoothly? You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JayFitz164 0 #12 August 19, 2004 I have had great openings w/ a veng 120 when I do not bury the nose when packing. That and flyng the harness. I only go to rears when it opens in a turn, usualy caused by (in my opinion) a burried nose and a super long snival. Only one slammer and it was last week, the trash pack was my own doing and I deserved it. Great canopy if you are not ready for xbraced. Lots of low end. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #13 August 20, 2004 I just picked up a 150 at an auction at the WFFC. Only had maybe a max of 5 jumps on it. I only have 10-12 jumps on it now so that's not exactly vast experience but I LOVE it o far. Yes......I have found that if I do not get the tail wrap right (tight and keep it that way throughout the pack job) it can do some exciting things on opening. I did have one of those "Spinning" openings. No idea why. I first tried to correct with harness but then had to haul down hard on the left rear riser to stop it. Had one "hard" opening at SDC Monday when I was really sloppy with the tail roll. Seems that as long as I pack it correctly it opens beautifully. It's 1000% more forgiving than my Stiletto. Even the "hard" opening was mild comparatively. It flies SOOOO much better than a Stiletto, the openings are generally better, and it feels WAY better in turbulence. Plus........it's a SWOOP MACHINE!!!!! I'll keep it for a few hundred jumps till I decide to go Cross Braced. Almost forgot......I have a 150 loaded at 1.43. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #14 August 20, 2004 I'm sure if you did a search you could find lots of feedback on this canopy. The short version of it though is this. That canopy isn't a favorite at PD and you know first hand why. It is notorious for it's bad openings, tendencies to turn, dive, etc. Some pretty good alternative canopies have already been mentioned and are worth looking into. I personally find the Katana and Firebolt similar in many aspects except that the Firebolt planes out quicker than the Katana due to the 2.65:1 aspect ratio(katana has a 2.74:1 aspect ratio). If you load the Firebolt in the 1.7 to 2 lbs sq ft range you will find the characteristic that I think your looking for(vengence/velocity) Lighter and your in the Crossfire 2 ballpark. However, if your looking for something with airlocks then you need to look at other airlocked canopies. Ya know, the whole apples and oranges bit"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #15 August 20, 2004 Try a Samauri. In my opinion it out proforms the Vengence in all aspects. I've got 75+ wingsuit jumps on mine with out more then a 90 degree turn. It flies like a 9 cell eliptical should fly. Plus its airlocked Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jose 0 #16 August 20, 2004 Hey Phree, I've got one on the way to my house right now. I will be jumping the Sam, against the Xfire2 next weekend. I will post my results.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #17 August 20, 2004 QuoteThe question I put before the committee is; What flies like a Vengeance, but doesn't open like a Vengeance? I heard a Katana is the same planform and has very similar flight characteristics, but I am not sure I want to downsize to a 120 from a 135, yet. Anyone have any suggestions? Sa-Mu-Rai ! Flies very much like the Vengeance... If you can find a Jedei in decent shape, you'll be laughing too. My Samurai has the sweetest openings! I'm currently jumping my friends rig with the same sized Vengeance and I've had 1 good openine out of every 5. His sentiments regarding his canopy mirror yours. "Love you but Damn! Why you gotta be so mean?" lol. Brian Germain created the Jeidi (first canopy with air locks), he then sold the air lock rights to PD who made the Vengeance. Brian then created the Samurai which has some new innovation in the crossporting. The three canopies are indeed very similar. The aspect ratio of the Samurai is slightly higher than the Jedei, but lower than the Vengeance. If you read about it at Big Air Sportz, you'll see they attribute great openings to this target aspect ratio. Also to the fact that it has less curvature of the leading edge then the Vengeance (a cause of line twists and over-steer - harness inputs at opening have you diving at opening) The recovery arc of the Sammy is a little slower then the Vengeace, who can admitedly out glide it's Big Air counterpart. I've made a small handfull of jumps on bothe the Jedei and the Vengeance and about 95 on the Sammy. There's my 0.02CND. Hope it helps. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
diablopilot 2 #4 August 19, 2004 The Blade from HiPer.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sabr190 0 #5 August 19, 2004 How many jumps do you have on it? How do you pack it? I noticed you said new brake lines, what about the rest of the lines?. From what I hear the Vengeance gets real unpredictable when it is out of trim. I have 450ish on my Vengeance 135 and only have problems when I create them, like trying to steer the opening with the risers, rushed packed jobs, ect. "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #6 August 19, 2004 QuoteYou grab your risers during deployment/the snivel? I only get on my risers after it is open and if it starts its turn. Those are funny (oh-oh funny, not ha-ha funny) openings, too, because they appear to be opening very nicely and it's just about fully open on heading when, wham it starts a very high speed turn. Harness input is insufficient to stop it, and if I don't get immediately on risers, I have to go to toggle input. If I let it build for one or two seconds, it is really whipping. I have 400 jumps on it and have not had it fully relined, just new brake lines. This is the second Vengeance PD sent me. The first one I sent back and they looked at it, jumped it, adjusted it, relined it, and then asked what I wanted instead.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #7 August 19, 2004 QuoteThe Blade from HiPer. That's a nice flying canopy. I jumped their 108 at WFFC. Surfed the whole pond. Sweet! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amir1967 0 #8 August 19, 2004 Hi Myself I was always on the rear riser ready for counter steer (canopy open slider down and there it goes to diving to the right - left rear riser yenk once and the canopy flies strait) but then if it would do 360° I would be 600 700 ft lower and if I open at 2500 or so I would be under my reserve hard deck So I phoned PD send them the canopy they tested it replaced line set and jumped it again,then they mailed me that my Veng was still open in a slow turn and that from a PD test pilot so I left it there and now I have Sabre2 which is not as much fun but the opening are beter. I didnt look at your wingload but my is 1.4 on the 170 and one spinning mal where I pitch at 5000 and have opening (protrack) 3800 ft on the reserve and the all thing was 4-5 second pitch,open.diving and spinning on my back,look reach look pool reach pull reseve. made me take a good look at downsizing any thurther any time soon. Maybe a good point to add to the list befor downsizing is spinning mal on current canopy.AM67 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #9 August 19, 2004 I have a few humdred jumps on a ven 135 loaded at about 1.65. I never had any hard openeings except from really horrible pack jobs. Im used to canopies that turn much worse on opening so to me the vengeance 's off heading openings are rather mild. If you like the way it flies you will like a katana and it opens a little better. I jumped one loaded at 2.0 it opened great (basically on heading) and it dove hard like a vengeance. You could also try a competition cobalt 120 it has a flatter glide than a vengeance but the riser pressure is lighter so you can hold it in a dive longer. ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #10 August 19, 2004 Crossfire 2 or Katana. Katana should be in 135 pretty soon (as well as a 150). It's actually a more aggressive/responsive canopy than the Vengeance. Crossfire 2 has sweet ass openings (sweet ass openings?), nice riser pressure (both front and rear), dives very well, and has a ton of bottom end. I have to disagree with my good friend TALONSKY and say that the Katana dives more than the Crossfire 2 (it damn near has a negative recovery arc), but the Crossfire 2 is a very nice canopy -- it's a swooping machine with very soft, consistent, on-heading openings. For non-crossbraced ellipticals, I think these two canopies are the best. I've flown both with a wingsuit, which is very demanding on openings. I like the Katana more in general (and now own one), but the Crossfire 2 has, IMO, better opening characteristics. LouDiamond posted this link to the Firebolt's opening. I don't know what it flies like, but it might be worth a demo. I need to rip some video of Katana openings whilst flying a wingsuit. It's been very, very nice to me. It's all body position. "¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaerock 1 #11 August 19, 2004 Try a Samurai..9-cell ellipitcal air-lock done right :> -R QuoteOnce it's open, I love my Vengeance. It flies well, turns crisply, and has a lot of bottom-end performance. But the openings suck. In the last two weeks I have had line twists, diving turns, a hard opening, and several real nice snivelly ones. Everytime I reach back there, it's another possible, "Hello Mr Toad" experience. And some of them are x-citing. I have had turns where the only way to stop them is to unstow the brakes and use toggle input. This means before stowing the slider which makes for a pretty busy trip down (unstow brakes, stop turn, check jumpsuit for bio-hazard, bring slider down past unstowed brakes, collapse slider, stow slider, all the time looking for traffic and trying to head back to the DZ.). Not to mention the altitude it eats up before you get the turn stopped. I have tried the usual fixes; adjust the harness, untwist the brake lines, readjust the brake lines, change the brake lines,... The question I put before the committee is; What flies like a Vengeance, but doesn't open like a Vengeance? I heard a Katana is the same planform and has very similar flight characteristics, but I am not sure I want to downsize to a 120 from a 135, yet. Anyone have any suggestions? Oh yeah, and does anyone want to buy a really nice Vengeance 135, new brake lines, 400 jumps, and really flies smoothly? You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JayFitz164 0 #12 August 19, 2004 I have had great openings w/ a veng 120 when I do not bury the nose when packing. That and flyng the harness. I only go to rears when it opens in a turn, usualy caused by (in my opinion) a burried nose and a super long snival. Only one slammer and it was last week, the trash pack was my own doing and I deserved it. Great canopy if you are not ready for xbraced. Lots of low end. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #13 August 20, 2004 I just picked up a 150 at an auction at the WFFC. Only had maybe a max of 5 jumps on it. I only have 10-12 jumps on it now so that's not exactly vast experience but I LOVE it o far. Yes......I have found that if I do not get the tail wrap right (tight and keep it that way throughout the pack job) it can do some exciting things on opening. I did have one of those "Spinning" openings. No idea why. I first tried to correct with harness but then had to haul down hard on the left rear riser to stop it. Had one "hard" opening at SDC Monday when I was really sloppy with the tail roll. Seems that as long as I pack it correctly it opens beautifully. It's 1000% more forgiving than my Stiletto. Even the "hard" opening was mild comparatively. It flies SOOOO much better than a Stiletto, the openings are generally better, and it feels WAY better in turbulence. Plus........it's a SWOOP MACHINE!!!!! I'll keep it for a few hundred jumps till I decide to go Cross Braced. Almost forgot......I have a 150 loaded at 1.43. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #14 August 20, 2004 I'm sure if you did a search you could find lots of feedback on this canopy. The short version of it though is this. That canopy isn't a favorite at PD and you know first hand why. It is notorious for it's bad openings, tendencies to turn, dive, etc. Some pretty good alternative canopies have already been mentioned and are worth looking into. I personally find the Katana and Firebolt similar in many aspects except that the Firebolt planes out quicker than the Katana due to the 2.65:1 aspect ratio(katana has a 2.74:1 aspect ratio). If you load the Firebolt in the 1.7 to 2 lbs sq ft range you will find the characteristic that I think your looking for(vengence/velocity) Lighter and your in the Crossfire 2 ballpark. However, if your looking for something with airlocks then you need to look at other airlocked canopies. Ya know, the whole apples and oranges bit"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #15 August 20, 2004 Try a Samauri. In my opinion it out proforms the Vengence in all aspects. I've got 75+ wingsuit jumps on mine with out more then a 90 degree turn. It flies like a 9 cell eliptical should fly. Plus its airlocked Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jose 0 #16 August 20, 2004 Hey Phree, I've got one on the way to my house right now. I will be jumping the Sam, against the Xfire2 next weekend. I will post my results.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #17 August 20, 2004 QuoteThe question I put before the committee is; What flies like a Vengeance, but doesn't open like a Vengeance? I heard a Katana is the same planform and has very similar flight characteristics, but I am not sure I want to downsize to a 120 from a 135, yet. Anyone have any suggestions? Sa-Mu-Rai ! Flies very much like the Vengeance... If you can find a Jedei in decent shape, you'll be laughing too. My Samurai has the sweetest openings! I'm currently jumping my friends rig with the same sized Vengeance and I've had 1 good openine out of every 5. His sentiments regarding his canopy mirror yours. "Love you but Damn! Why you gotta be so mean?" lol. Brian Germain created the Jeidi (first canopy with air locks), he then sold the air lock rights to PD who made the Vengeance. Brian then created the Samurai which has some new innovation in the crossporting. The three canopies are indeed very similar. The aspect ratio of the Samurai is slightly higher than the Jedei, but lower than the Vengeance. If you read about it at Big Air Sportz, you'll see they attribute great openings to this target aspect ratio. Also to the fact that it has less curvature of the leading edge then the Vengeance (a cause of line twists and over-steer - harness inputs at opening have you diving at opening) The recovery arc of the Sammy is a little slower then the Vengeace, who can admitedly out glide it's Big Air counterpart. I've made a small handfull of jumps on bothe the Jedei and the Vengeance and about 95 on the Sammy. There's my 0.02CND. Hope it helps. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
