flyhi 24 #26 September 10, 2004 QuoteIs your profile information really correct? And they're off!Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaerock 1 #27 September 10, 2004 Sure, YOU can swoop the piss out of it. But do you really think it's wise for a newbie to begin swooping on that kind of canopy? I think the technical skill required for something like that is very great. I fear that canopies like that will teach people bad habits before they learn how to do things properly...by making them want to hook lower and lower due to strong neutral or positive recovery arcs until they eat it. I cringe when I see someone with a low number of jumps pulling a turn really low because their wing-loading is so light and they're willing to get the swoop no matter what. I'd rather see them flying conservatively on a faster canopy. -Rory QuoteDude, I can swoop the piss out of a Spectre at .9. There is no reason whatsoever that this person cannot do HP turns under that canopy. It's not the canopy; it's the progression. You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #28 September 10, 2004 What are you talking about man? A canopy doesn't have to be loaded at 2.0 to surf. A Spectre, even loaded lightly can surf a long distance. It's all how the thing is flown. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #29 September 10, 2004 OK so by your theory of the spectre having a short recovery arc, and he shouldn't learn on it, you could be saying that he should be jumping a Katana, or a Velo, or an FX, Or a VX, or a Xaos to learn to swoop on;..... That doesn't sound to wise to me. How many jumps on the spectre do you have? If you had a bunch on it then you would know that it has quite a bit longer of a recovery arc than say the stilletto. Just because it's a 7 cell, and he's not loading it up to all of you guy's standards, doesn't mean it's a bad canopy to learn on. Just because the dude is starting up at 600' for final doesn't change anything either. In time he will bring it down, but only when he feels comfortable to do so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,076 #30 September 10, 2004 I'm not sure I understand your progression. The safest sort of high performance landing to do is a double front riser approach. That gives you a bit more speed, and you can abort it at any time by dropping the front risers. It gets you used to high-performance (i.e. higher speed than full flight) landings. You can start these at 100 feet; you just have to be off the front risers by 50 feet or so (depending on your canopy's recovery arc.) The next safest is a _gradual_ front riser turn onto final from 45 to 90 degrees (starting at 45.) If you end up turning too low, you abort the landing and land straight ahead. You're only at 45 degrees to the wind at that point so it's not a big deal. If you end up turning too high, "stretch" the swoop by adding double fronts. You have it dialed in when you can drop the front riser, let the canopy recover on its own (at about 2 feet above the ground) and then gradually add brakes to continue the planeout. At this point also work on digging yourself out of the corner. To do this, start the front riser turn, then drop the front riser, level the wing as quickly as possible, and flare until you are back at normal flight speed - then quickly let the toggles back up. That will put you on final at normal flying speed, ready to flare. (If you ever do this _really_ low, of course, you don't let the toggles back up - you flare hard and that's your landing flare.) Once you have those down, you can gradually work up to front riser 180's. These can really "put you in the corner" so you have to sneak up on them; I'd want to do 100 good front riser 90's to landing before trying anything more than a 90. I don't think toggle hooks are _ever_ safe. You can't get out of the corner if you put yourself there too soon; you've already used up your canopy's lift in initiating the turn. The kind of canopy you use will determine how you learn. You can certainly learn on a Spectre at .9 to 1, but you have to be careful because its short recovery arc requires you to manuever very close to the ground. The difference between a good swoop and a broken femur might be 10 feet on a short-recovery-arc canopy; it might be 100 feet on a canopy with a longer arc. Not to say it can't be done, just to be careful working up to it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #31 September 10, 2004 QuoteQuoteIs your profile information really correct? And they're off! No. I'm just really wanted to know if his info was updated. Because the originator of this thread clearly has not updated his profile for a while. Heck, mine is even a bit off. It just helps me understand peoples prospective. Like I might look at mine and think, "Old and Jaded." or a newer jumper who has learned swooping techniques from the get go. I mean when some of us were learning it was trial an error. And too many of the errors were 6 foot errors. Now young swoopers have a wealth of information to draw on so they don't have to make fatal mistakes. Weather they choose to seek that information out or use it once they find it is another story. So, when I ask Rhino about his profile info, I want to see where he is coming from in his own learning curve to offer up the opinion he has. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #32 September 10, 2004 QuoteJust because the dude is starting up at 600' for final doesn't change anything either. In time he will bring it down, but only when he feels comfortable to do so.Thanks Spizzzarko. Now I don't feel like such a dork for my slow progression. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #33 September 10, 2004 QuoteThanks Spizzzarko. Now I don't feel like such a dork for my slow progression. Never, ever, ever, feel like a "dork" for going slowly. I GUARENTEE it'll make you a better pilot than those who rush. Everyone has to stop and learn sometime. IMO the beginning is the best time so you don't spend the next 100(0)'s of jumps fixing bad habits. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #34 September 10, 2004 I made a fast canopy progression and it ended up putting me farther behind in the long run. Learn the basics on your big canopy, because they will always transfer to the smaller ones, and the basics will always save you when your in a pinch. Just think about being smooth in everything that you do, and it will help you out in addition to being able to land slowly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #35 September 10, 2004 WELL SAID IAN!!! In the begining of billvon's post he talked about "Dropping" the fronts. I personally wouldn't just "Drop" them... It becomes easy to loose a toggle then, but that's just me, and I'm sure bill didn't mean to just "Drop" them (FRONTS that is). Like I said earlier be "SMOOTH". Bill also brought up many good points. Practice practice practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #36 September 10, 2004 Thanks dude, I really wish I'd known (and believed) then what I do now. I think I'd be a much better pilot for it all. Now the real question is....Why don't I see your name on the Skydive Atlanta Halloween Freefly Boogie attendence list? Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #37 September 10, 2004 Brotha I would love to attend, but after the rather shity performance at Rantoul that I demonstrated (shined my ass in front of god and country), I don't think I could show my face for awhile. Besides I'm slightly un-employed at the moment and going to school at the same time, so spending a lot of money isn't suitable right now. I would love to come to Atlanta, and go drinking in downtown Atlanta again. I went there once with the Air Force, and I don't think we were sober any of the 30 days we were there!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #38 September 10, 2004 I started pulling down the front risers for landing(after a canopy control course and input from my mentor, a pro swooper) at around 35 jumps on a silhouette 210 @ 1.1:1. I progressed to 45s and 90s, until I came to realize I didn't like the positive recovery arc--the same positive recovery arc that helped me out early on. I downsized and went on from there. I believe starting HP landings on a larger canopy was a great benefit to me, because if I screwed up (and we all screw up at one time or another), I had a big-ass canopy above my head to soften the blow. It's about schools of thought, and I like the school that says "if you're hell-bent on swooping, start at the right time (earlier, rather than later, but with instruction) under a forgiving canopy." mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #39 September 10, 2004 Plus don't forget it's the canopy pilot not the canopy. There is video out there on the net (I can't remember where I got it, but it's out there) of Scott Miller swooping a Navigator 220. Yes Scott is a pretty big and strong fellow allowing him to maintain the front riser pressure throughout his hook. But it's pretty impressive nontheless to see him swoop this big boat. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #40 September 11, 2004 QuoteYou can start these at 100 feet; you just have to be off the front risers by 50 feet or so (depending on your canopy's recovery arc.)After speaking with a few swoopers and instructors today, I got a lot of feedback. Some negative and some positive. I decided to give it a shot today. I did about 5 practice double front riser dives on my first hop and pop. I slowly let up my toggles after pulling them for 5 seconds. Then, as I built up some forward speed, I went into 1/4 brakes to plane out. As I got down to my final leg, the moment of truth had arrived. At about 100 feet, I held those suckers for a few seconds. Man, closer to the ground, you really see how much forward speed you can build up. Well, it freaked me out. At about 60 feet, I popped my fingers out of the front riser dive loops (my hands and other free fingers were still holding onto the toggles) and then I planed out right away by doing that, my forward speed slowed down tremendously. My flare was normal as ever, slow and soft. I then, realized that I could have held them down longer and slowly let up on the front risers and prepare to flare. It's not so bad afterall. Sure gave me a good scare though. I'm gonna be smoother in letting them up next time around. I spoke to Heath Richardson after I landed. He advised that I should always use smooth movements when letting up on the front risers or to get the wings leveled again. Thanks for the great tips Billvon. I'll definitely use those them in my progression. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swoopdaddio 0 #41 September 16, 2004 Right on !!! Start with the smallest amount of rotation, get it dialled & increase gently. When you wanna go for the bigger turns practice up high, measure the altitude loss with an accurate alti such as a neptune add 100 ft & ease it down to the perfect height over plenty of jumps. ALWAYS BE READY to find out "ooops that was too low" & train yourself to be able to deal with it. Ultimately the aim should be to find out how high we can turn from rather than how low we can get away with.25 years & still lovin' it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
imdskydiver 0 #42 September 17, 2004 measure the altitude loss with an accurate alti such as a neptuneQuote I was using my neptune to set up all of my hook turns till it froze up and i had to bail out very low . The software will need some major upgrades before l i will trust it again . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #43 September 17, 2004 Quote was using my neptune to set up all of my hook turns till it froze up and i had to bail out very low . The software will need some major upgrades before l i will trust it again . It's a good tool but you're relying on it if you NEED it to do a performance landing safely and that's not a good thing. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Spizzzarko 0 #44 September 17, 2004 Use your mechanical altimeter in conjunction with the two that God gave you. You will be far more accurate using your eyes and you alti!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites imdskydiver 0 #45 September 17, 2004 It's a good tool but you're relying on it if you NEED it to do a performance landing safely and that's not a good thing. Quote I bailed out because my eyes did not trust what my Neptune was reading , I always have an out and i used it that time . I feel that to get consistent swoops you really need to be at the same altitude and general position every time , An altimeter is generally more accurate that your eyes . The point that i was trying to make in an earlier post was that the neptune is not always an accurate or reliable tool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #46 September 17, 2004 I can only speak for myself, but when my spider senses are tingling (my eyes telling me I'm too low despite what my alti says). It's time to abort. What's worse, having your pride hurt on a less than ideal swoop, or a trip to the ER? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #47 September 17, 2004 QuoteDude, I can swoop the piss out of a Spectre at .9. There is no reason whatsoever that this person cannot do HP turns under that canopy. It's not the canopy; it's the progression. You can because you are good and experienced.. A not so experienced person, learning to swoop can get killed with that short of a recovery arc.. Hell I can swoop the piss out of one too but that doesn't make it a good idea for someone that needs the advantages that a longer recovery arc gives them.. Wouldn't you agree? Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites imdskydiver 0 #48 September 17, 2004 I can only speak for myself, but when my spider senses are tingling (my eyes telling me I'm too low despite what my alti says). It's time to abort.Quote That is what i was saying and was exactly what i did . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #49 September 17, 2004 QuoteWhat's worse, having your bride hurt on a less than ideal swoop, or a trip to the ER? A bad swoop can hurt your bride? Does she know this? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #50 September 17, 2004 QuoteThey think I land it pretty well. They had no complaints on the timing of the first stage flare or last stage flare. Those aren't my best landings. Those videos are both no wind landings. Scott has video'd me land 40 times for his courses and Heath has video'd me land 15 times. With each and every landing they both said that I'm getting better at it. With this being said you are being properly coached and on track.. Press on and be safe.. When I started swooping my coach advised me to get on an semi or elliptical canopy from 1.4 - 1.6. Reason being the recovery arc. For me it was a good move.. It might not be for everyone.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
ianmdrennan 2 #43 September 17, 2004 Quote was using my neptune to set up all of my hook turns till it froze up and i had to bail out very low . The software will need some major upgrades before l i will trust it again . It's a good tool but you're relying on it if you NEED it to do a performance landing safely and that's not a good thing. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #44 September 17, 2004 Use your mechanical altimeter in conjunction with the two that God gave you. You will be far more accurate using your eyes and you alti!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
imdskydiver 0 #45 September 17, 2004 It's a good tool but you're relying on it if you NEED it to do a performance landing safely and that's not a good thing. Quote I bailed out because my eyes did not trust what my Neptune was reading , I always have an out and i used it that time . I feel that to get consistent swoops you really need to be at the same altitude and general position every time , An altimeter is generally more accurate that your eyes . The point that i was trying to make in an earlier post was that the neptune is not always an accurate or reliable tool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #46 September 17, 2004 I can only speak for myself, but when my spider senses are tingling (my eyes telling me I'm too low despite what my alti says). It's time to abort. What's worse, having your pride hurt on a less than ideal swoop, or a trip to the ER? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #47 September 17, 2004 QuoteDude, I can swoop the piss out of a Spectre at .9. There is no reason whatsoever that this person cannot do HP turns under that canopy. It's not the canopy; it's the progression. You can because you are good and experienced.. A not so experienced person, learning to swoop can get killed with that short of a recovery arc.. Hell I can swoop the piss out of one too but that doesn't make it a good idea for someone that needs the advantages that a longer recovery arc gives them.. Wouldn't you agree? Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites imdskydiver 0 #48 September 17, 2004 I can only speak for myself, but when my spider senses are tingling (my eyes telling me I'm too low despite what my alti says). It's time to abort.Quote That is what i was saying and was exactly what i did . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #49 September 17, 2004 QuoteWhat's worse, having your bride hurt on a less than ideal swoop, or a trip to the ER? A bad swoop can hurt your bride? Does she know this? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #50 September 17, 2004 QuoteThey think I land it pretty well. They had no complaints on the timing of the first stage flare or last stage flare. Those aren't my best landings. Those videos are both no wind landings. Scott has video'd me land 40 times for his courses and Heath has video'd me land 15 times. With each and every landing they both said that I'm getting better at it. With this being said you are being properly coached and on track.. Press on and be safe.. When I started swooping my coach advised me to get on an semi or elliptical canopy from 1.4 - 1.6. Reason being the recovery arc. For me it was a good move.. It might not be for everyone.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
CanuckInUSA 0 #46 September 17, 2004 I can only speak for myself, but when my spider senses are tingling (my eyes telling me I'm too low despite what my alti says). It's time to abort. What's worse, having your pride hurt on a less than ideal swoop, or a trip to the ER? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #47 September 17, 2004 QuoteDude, I can swoop the piss out of a Spectre at .9. There is no reason whatsoever that this person cannot do HP turns under that canopy. It's not the canopy; it's the progression. You can because you are good and experienced.. A not so experienced person, learning to swoop can get killed with that short of a recovery arc.. Hell I can swoop the piss out of one too but that doesn't make it a good idea for someone that needs the advantages that a longer recovery arc gives them.. Wouldn't you agree? Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
imdskydiver 0 #48 September 17, 2004 I can only speak for myself, but when my spider senses are tingling (my eyes telling me I'm too low despite what my alti says). It's time to abort.Quote That is what i was saying and was exactly what i did . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #49 September 17, 2004 QuoteWhat's worse, having your bride hurt on a less than ideal swoop, or a trip to the ER? A bad swoop can hurt your bride? Does she know this? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #50 September 17, 2004 QuoteThey think I land it pretty well. They had no complaints on the timing of the first stage flare or last stage flare. Those aren't my best landings. Those videos are both no wind landings. Scott has video'd me land 40 times for his courses and Heath has video'd me land 15 times. With each and every landing they both said that I'm getting better at it. With this being said you are being properly coached and on track.. Press on and be safe.. When I started swooping my coach advised me to get on an semi or elliptical canopy from 1.4 - 1.6. Reason being the recovery arc. For me it was a good move.. It might not be for everyone.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Jimbo 0 #49 September 17, 2004 QuoteWhat's worse, having your bride hurt on a less than ideal swoop, or a trip to the ER? A bad swoop can hurt your bride? Does she know this? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #50 September 17, 2004 QuoteThey think I land it pretty well. They had no complaints on the timing of the first stage flare or last stage flare. Those aren't my best landings. Those videos are both no wind landings. Scott has video'd me land 40 times for his courses and Heath has video'd me land 15 times. With each and every landing they both said that I'm getting better at it. With this being said you are being properly coached and on track.. Press on and be safe.. When I started swooping my coach advised me to get on an semi or elliptical canopy from 1.4 - 1.6. Reason being the recovery arc. For me it was a good move.. It might not be for everyone.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
