Slow approach question

[skyhighkiy 0]

I was talking to an experienced jumper on skills to practice for slow approaches.

one of the things he listed seemed peculiar to me and I would like more input on it before trying.

"On a fairly well-winded day, get above the spot you want to land at about a thousand feet, go into 3/4's brakes and hold it so that you drop straight down on the target until you're about to land and finish your flare"


People w/ experience on this, input, please?
what kind of a landing does this induce?

BE THE BUDDHA!

[freeflydrew 0]

On a well winded day, don't jump unless your comfortable jumping in wind... Don't fly downwind of your landing area, do fly a pattern, and don't flair all the way, unless you've reacted late and are going to pound in. You should fly your canopy in full flight before you flair so it is most responsive, and expect to only have to flair 25% to 50% for it to put you down comfortably.

Rip it to shreds people, it's only my opinion.

[murps2000 86]

It would most likely work, but (I know you're getting sick of hearing this) I would advise waiting until you've got your landings (flare timing) down pretty good. See, if you hold brakes all the way down, you're robbing yourself of airspeed that would help give you a strong flare. What flare you would still have should be enough, but flaring from brakes is trickier than from full flight. Your window is smaller, and your technique has to be a little different, and pretty much spot on. Now, you could let up at anywhere from 50-100 feet to get a surge to regain your airspeed, but again, this is tricky, and in fact quite risky. I would not at all recommend it in windy conditions. When you let up from braked flight, you briefly unload your canopy as it surges forward at a lower angle of attack. In winds, particularly turbulent ones, you risk collapse. Not to mention the fact that if you don't flare on time, you're going to pile in pretty hard.

Have you been reading your book? Check out pages 36-7, Then read chapter 3.

[SwoopnHuck 0]

3/4 brakes in high winds, low to the ground sounds like a recipe for a disaster.

It's a parachute, it wants to open!!!

[SuperKat 0]

Quote

I was talking to an experienced jumper on skills to practice for slow approaches.

Wasn't a jumpmaster training you and monitoring you on swoops? Did you ask him what his opinion was?

Quote

"On a fairly well-winded day, get above the spot you want to land at about a thousand feet, go into 3/4's brakes and hold it so that you drop straight down on the target until you're about to land and finish your flare"

First, I would strongly suggest you pay for some canopy coaching before doing this. It hurts the pocket but it keeps you alive and keeps you in the air.

I'm not recommending you do this at all but I'll share with you what I trained on from experts. When I took the Flight 1 camp with Scott Miller and Heath Richardson, we practiced doing approaches on 1/4 brakes first. We didn't do this without practicing up high first. So at about 4,000 - 2000 feet, we flew in 1/4 brakes, held it for few secs, then we flared to our sweet spot and then finished the flare. We did this at least 7 or 8 times up high. Then, we progressed to a 1/2 brake approach. On that day, the winds were gusting 19mph and we were getting some turbulent air too. The 1/4 braked approach was fine. The 1/2 brake approach kicked my butt! The last 15-20 feet my flare didn't have shit to it, I got darted to the ground. Just before the flare I was getting knocked around, catching a nasty rotor too. If my flare had not been on point, I would have smacked the ground hard! I didn't get hurt but my landing was not standup and my pride kissed the ground. Therefore, I wouldn't encourage you to fly in windy day on 3/4 brakes unless you get proper coaching and training from a certified canopy coach/instructor.

I'm not an expert and correct me if I'm wrong but on a windy day and on deep brakes, your canopy has already lost its forward speed and sinks a lot faster. If you don't know where your sweet spot is and don't get the right coaching for the timing of your flare from deep brakes, then you'll probably flare too late or not enough and I'm sure you know what would happen to you afterwards.

Take your time progressing, you have your whole life ahead of you. You can read all the books, watch all the videos and get all advice up the ying yang. Video and books will leave out so much information. You can't squeeze in great canopy coaching advice and tips in a 1hr video or 1,000 page book. For myself, I benefitted from taking a shit load of canopy flight instruction. Canopy coaching will brief your drill jump and debrief your drill jump for about an hour a piece. What's more, they'll catch your landings on video too. Just my $0.50! Be safe and blue skies!

p.s. don't take what others have to say to heart. Listen to the advice not the tonation. If no one gave a shit, they wouldn't warn you about apparent dangers. Regardless of how your past attitude was to others, no one wants to see you get hurt.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[skyhighkiy 0]

Quote

I would advise waiting until you've got your landings (flare timing) down pretty good

ok

Quote

Have you been reading your book? Check out pages 36-7, Then read chapter 3.

Yup, finished the book, 4 days after I got it, and I know the part you're talking about.

That's why I was leery about doing it when I heard it mentioned in things I should have under my belt. obviusly, the canopy will be more likely to collapse and less stable w/ less G's on the toggles and less overall net momentum/forces...and I've done practice w/ surging forward w/ the toggles and all that shtuff.


I learned a lesson this weekend, a valuable one about how bad I am as a pilot.

there was a little bit of south wind. this is bad for our particular D.Z. because on the south end of our landing area is a nice set of trees...HUGE ones. for this reason, I decided not to do anything to induce anymore speed and just took a straight-in approach.

Because of my inexperience, it didn't click until 2 landings later that the speed I was lacking from not doing anything with risers, made my canopy less responsive on the flare. don't get me wrong, I ended up on my feet both times, without injury, but I did get a little grass stained on the knee and butt from a 'hard-than-I'd-like" slide.



Until I can consistantly mix up my landings (both straight in and w/ speed induced) I am not ready to progress w/ anything more extreme than what I"m doing now. although, I feel that what I'm doing is not too extreme.

Srry, no video yet, Rotors and straight in landings don't make for N E thing good


Thx for the advice

mm, one more thing, I don't know if this is noteworthy, but might as well throw it out there, my 1 yr of jumping is from end of April (04)...I believe?...somewhere around there, to present. besides the 2 tandems I made approx 1 yr ago. (sep 11th)

murps, any suggestions for any other good literature? b.t.w. kick ass icon

BE THE BUDDHA!

[murps2000 86]

I learned a lesson this weekend, a valuable one about how bad I am as a pilot...

Quote

We all have, but if you retain the lesson, you're on your way to becoming a better one.

murps, any suggestions for any other good literature?

I've read some other works on the subject, but none as thorough and informative as Brian Germain's. If you're into math, a guy named Jerry Sobieski wrote a piece that delves pretty deeply into that end of whats going on above your head. When I read it, I found it interesting, but I wasn't sure about how to practically apply it at the time. Hell, I don't even know how today. Kevin Gibson and Brian Burke have each written a treatise on the subject as well. Give me till after work and I'll try and find out the exact titles (sorry, it's 5 am here).

Quote

b.t.w. kick ass icon

Thanks, but I'm kind of jealous of Spizzzarko's. But then again, my hairline more closely resembles Burt's, if my girlfriend didn't wax me I'd have his eyebrow, and occasionally we share a similar temperment. Now, if I could only find a picture of that snuffalupagus....

[skyhighkiy 0]

Quote

sorry, it's 5 am here

that's bed time!

Quote

Now, if I could only find a picture of that snuffalupagus....

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/avatars/snuffleupagus.gif
oh come on, you knew I couldn't resist


My take on body hair? Nair for men is DEFINATELY more manly because it comes in a blue bottle.

Quote

If you're into math, a guy named Jerry Sobieski wrote a piece that delves pretty deeply into that end of whats going on above your head.

that could help a lot actually. is it a lot of physics or more calculus-based stuff?

BE THE BUDDHA!

[tspillers 0]

Didn't you do a braked approach during your student progression? After all, it is one of the requirements for an A license?

If you did, how did it go and how much brakes were you using on approach?

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

[skyhighkiy 0]

yeah, I do braked appraoches all the time, nearly every time I set up I'm in some sort of brakes to get the right altitude and distance to start my pattern/finish my pattern

also, thrown down some brakes on final

1/2 brake turns, 3/4 brake turns, hard toggle one side to flare. (same as previous, but then pulling hard the other way)3/4 brakes, half brakes, full brakes, 1/4 brakes, done all that stuff, but the post is about being in 3/4 brakes STRAIGHT down, all the way to the ground w/out ever letting off, and then just finishing a flare...

BE THE BUDDHA!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

but the post is about being in 3/4 brakes STRAIGHT down, all the way to the ground w/out ever letting off, and then just finishing a flare.

You're only asking for a trip to the ER if you do this in high winds. You're canopy stands a chance of being blown behind you and you could be dumped on your ass from a feet above the ground and slammed onto your back. Don't do it!!!

It's okay to try and get good a sinking it in (using a canopy designed for this task like a BASE canopy or an accuracy canopy), but 3/4 brakes in high winds on a Sabre 170? Owe-che-ca-wow-wa I say.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[skyhighkiy 0]

Quote

but 3/4 brakes in high winds on a Sabre 170?

aaaaaah, this might have had a big part in waht the guy was saying then, I'm not sure what size canopy he had but def. right around 100. or sub 100

would this maneuver work on a sub 100 or low 100 canopy?

Quote

Owe-che-ca-wow-wa

*applause* excellent use of beat-box typing

BE THE BUDDHA!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

A smaller canopy will penetrate into a strong wind better than a big one, but no canopy regardless of its size is immune from this problem if you are too deep in the brakes in high winds. Remember your angle of incidence is changed while in brakes (the person under the canopy is swung forward) and you are closer to the stall point. If you exceed the limits of your canopy (regardless of its size) and the canopy swings behind the jumper (much more likely to happen in high winds) then the jumper is going to land on their ass, or worse their back and if this happens from a few feet above the ground, then ... owe-che-ca-wow-wa!!!

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

"On a fairly well-winded day, get above the spot you want to land at about a thousand feet, go into 3/4's brakes and hold it so that you drop straight down on the target until you're about to land and finish your flare"

Thumping potential aside, is this sort of approach going to get some words from the rest of the jumpers after we're on the ground?

[murps2000 86]

Sorry to make you wait a bit, but here are some things you can check out:

http://www.skydiveaz.com/resources/book_canopy.htm

http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/

http://www.dqnt.com/acc.htm

I still gotta find Jerry's article for you, tho. It's been a little while and I don't think it's as well known as some of these others. It's early here again, time to go make the donuts....

[skyhighkiy 0]

thx!

'mmmm, sprinkles'

BE THE BUDDHA!

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

A smaller canopy will penetrate into a strong wind better than a big one, but no canopy regardless of its size is immune from this problem if you are too deep in the brakes in high winds. Remember your angle of incidence is changed while in brakes (the person under the canopy is swung forward) and you are closer to the stall point. If you exceed the limits of your canopy (regardless of its size) and the canopy swings behind the jumper (much more likely to happen in high winds) then the jumper is going to land on their ass, or worse their back and if this happens from a few feet above the ground, then ... owe-che-ca-wow-wa!!!

This whole post confuses me. A smaller canopy doesn't necessarily penetrate better... unless you're talking about one person jumping two different canopies. Penetration depends on airspeed, which depends on wingloading and canopy type. I've seen a lot of larger canopies penetrate a lot farther into the wind than me.

Ok... now you say when you're flying in brakes, you're swung forward. Yeah, that happens temporarily due to momentum, but you don't stay swung out. You're a pendulum... you're going to hang basically straight down (not quite straight down because of drag) in the steady state. Not exactly sure how angle of incidence is defined for a canopy, but without pulling on your risers, I don't see why it would change by pulling on the brakes.

Why is the canopy more likely to swing behind the jumper (aka stall) in high winds? Gusty winds maybe, but wind speed shouldn't make a difference if it's steady.

Am I misreading what you wrote (or am I just plain wrong?)?

Dave

[skyhighkiy 0]

Yeah, he's talking about the perspective of two people flying one canopy. at least, that's how I read it, being that he's replying to me

Quote

Why is the canopy more likely to swing behind the jumper (aka stall) in high winds? Gusty winds maybe, but wind speed shouldn't make a difference if it's steady.

the best response I could give w/ my limited experience is that if you're flying in brakes in high winds, your canopy will have less airspeed and will have less internal pressure pushing on the canopy.

with decreased airspeed will come decreased tension in the lines. a gust with low tension seems as though it could do a hell of a lot more to mess up the system than a fast-flying, high G system

Please, any and everybody, correct me on any misinformation

be back in a couple hrs. DropZone's open and I hear planes flying over my campus!!! SKYDIIIIIVE!!!

BE THE BUDDHA!

[pilotdave 0]

I agree about a gust. But my point is the canopy reacts the same when the wind is 0 gusting to 5 as it does when the wind is 100 gusting to 105. I guess it's just the way I read what he wrote... When I think of a windy day, I'm thinking of high wind speed, not high gust factor. I mean I wouldn't think of a day with wind 0 gusting to 10 as being very windy, but it could be a nasty day for skydiving because of wind. Just words. Ya know?

Dave

[skyhighkiy 0]

BE THE BUDDHA!

[murps2000 86]

with decreased airspeed will come decreased tension in the lines. a gust with low tension seems as though it could do a hell of a lot more to mess up the system than a fast-flying, high G system
***



Perhaps you misunderstood the diagram on page 20. No matter what your airspeed is, if it is constant and above stall speed, you are in one G flight. If you increase your angle of attack (applying brakes), you are flying at greater than one G. If you decrease your angle of attack (releasing brakes) you are at less than one G, and in a less stable configuration. This is why letting up on your toggles to surge forward puts you at greater risk of collapse, particularly in high winds. (Read pages 21-2).

The speed increase or decrease does not change your apparent loading (and therefore, line tension), but rather is an effect of it's changing due to your wing's angle of attack.

I hope I didn't make that sound more confusing, but I probably did.


Still gotta find Jerry's article. Sorry, I'm pretty busy right now.

[skyhighkiy 0]

nope, not more confusing at all, very well put, thank you :)

BE THE BUDDHA!

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

This is why letting up on your toggles to surge forward puts you at greater risk of collapse, particularly in high winds. (Read pages 21-2).

I'm still lost. Again, are you referring to high wind gusts, or high wind speed? I guess I should buy the book and see for myself.

I'm not a very experienced canopy pilot, but does the above statement sound right? The canopy is most likely to collapse while surging forward after letting the toggles up quickly? I am just having trouble picturing that. I understand the theory that the tension in the lines is reduced for that second while the canopy surges, but at the same time, the canopy is farther from the stall point, at a lower angle of attack, right? So I guess if you hit some really nasty turbulence that deforms the canopy right during the second it takes for the canopy to surge forward, it could collapse. But is that really the most likely time for a canopy to collapse? Anyone experienced a collapse like that?

Seems to me that if you're flying in deep brakes, you're very close to the stall point. Turbulence changes your angle of attack suddenly. A little "bump" could cause your angle of attack to pass the critical angle of attack (stall point), allowing the canopy to collapse. Since you can sustain flight close to the stall point (minimum controllable airspeed, in airplane terms) and you can only get the canopy to surge forward for no more than, what, a second or two, doesn't it seem reasonable that your exposure time to possible canopy collapse due to turbulence is considerably higher in deep brakes than during a surge? Maybe the canopy will collapse more easily while surging (i'm not convinced, but i dont know), but it doesn't sound like something to really worry about.

Ok canopy people, tear it apart. I'm wrong a lot!

Dave

[murps2000 86]

The reason you're at greater risk for collapse at that point is because at lower angle of attack: 1) yes, your line tension is less, and 2) you are exposing more of your top skin to the relative wind. Niether of these is an issue with a rigid wing on an aircraft, but on an inflated one that you're hanging under they are. Angle of attack and line tension are directly related. If a wind gust comes along at this point, and it has a significant downward vector, things could get ugly.

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

1) yes, your line tension is less, and 2) you are exposing more of your top skin to the relative wind.

I'm just getting more confused by the minute here. Exposing top skin to the relative wind? You'd need a negative angle of attack to do that. I'm assuming you'd end up with zero tension in your lines if you managed that. I don't jump a highly loaded cross braced canopy, but I'm pretty sure my top skin doesn't see any relative wind (directly) when I let up on my brakes quickly.

Anyway, I get the concept, I'm just having trouble believing that there's more of a danger in letting your brakes up quickly than holding deep brakes while flying in turbulence. And, if I'm reading everyone's comments correctly here, we are talking about turbulence or gusts, not just high wind, right?

Dave