skyhighkiy 0 #1 September 27, 2004 How is it possible for someone to slam in to a tree when making a straight in landing? 10degrees to the left is all they would've had to turn in their 100 ft final to avoid the tree. on my way out to the plane yesterday I look over and see our blue manta 260 start all the way across our landing area on a straight path. continues forward....forward...foroward...tree....forward SLAM. the guy goes in to the tree....for some reason he also chose to go in to full flight from his half brakes, right before hitting it....oy. are students really under that much stress? i don't ever remember being that uncontroled well, needless to say when I found out the student was ok, we all busted out w/ hysterical laughter. a 260 isn't THAT hard to steer. aaaah well. Tree Dweller, this Bud's for you BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unutsch 0 #2 September 27, 2004 hm... the last time i made fun of such a act of stupidity, i made one myself... the lesson i learned: don't underestimate the power of stupidity... Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation: http://www.padliangeli.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #3 September 27, 2004 It is not stupidity it is called object fixation. Don't laugh too hard, you are far from out of the woods in regards to falling prey to this. Yes, students are under extreme stress. How hard could it be for you to remember, since you are basically stilll a student yourself? THe fact that you didn't kno0w "why" or "how" that could happen is precisely why it can still ahppen to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #4 September 27, 2004 I don'tknow why or how because I encountered a coupletimes, coming straight in from that long 100 ft vertical final, when I found myself facing directly at an object, and i turned to the side, it would've seriously taken just a tiny bit of toggle input to steer awayfrom it. I'm very much a student, I will always be a student, we're all students, those of us that hope to survive, anyway. b.t.w. "stupidity" was your word, not mine' another b.t.w. thank you for the term "object fixation" this post wasn't merely to say "hahaha,look at him" I was seeriously wondering hohw someone could, thank you for sharing your knowledge SKYDIIIIIVE B*tches! BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #5 September 27, 2004 It is very common for people, especially lower-experienced jumpers, to become target fixated. It's also very common for them to get "lock neck syndrome" and be totally unaware of other canopies in the air around them. Likewise, it is quite common for experienced jumpers to become target fixated on reserve rides. There are many, many cases where jumpers have flown straight into barbed-wire fences, power lines, and other obstacles because they thought they simply must make it to that field. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unutsch 0 #6 September 27, 2004 wrong choice of word --> i appologize Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation: http://www.padliangeli.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #7 September 27, 2004 do a search for 'target fixation'... I've seen a student turn into a jump plane on the ground whilst the props were turning... he missed the prop by less than a foot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #8 September 27, 2004 Man, that's rough, I hope I never end up doing that. What do people do? just keep looking at the object and head towards it? I don't see how it's possible to have an object that you clearly have time to avoid, and still go straight in to it. Is it just brain overload? hmm....hopefully he'll be able toget over that soon, for his sake, you know what skydivers say, "if at first you don't succeed....." BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #9 September 27, 2004 QuoteIt is very common for people, especially lower-experienced jumpers, to become target fixated. It's also very common for them to get "lock neck syndrome" and be totally unaware of other canopies in the air around them. This is exactly why I assume that every canopy in the air is out to kill me. I fly accordingly and defensively. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #10 September 27, 2004 QuoteIt is very common for people, especially lower-experienced jumpers, to become target fixated. It's also very common for them to get "lock neck syndrome" and be totally unaware of other canopies in the air around them. Likewise, it is quite common for experienced jumpers to become target fixated on reserve rides. There are many, many cases where jumpers have flown straight into barbed-wire fences, power lines, and other obstacles because they thought they simply must make it to that field. Chuck Better be tough if you're gonna be stupid... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blitzkrieg 0 #11 September 28, 2004 words to live by! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jkwon 0 #12 September 28, 2004 I dunno if this was said or not...but I remember my days starting to jump when they said "DO NOT MAKE A LOW TURN" at a 100ft...the student could have heard those words lingering in his/her head. I'm glad they are OK. I'd definitely have a talk with them to also make sure their pride isn't too badly hurt...It's devastating to make a mistake like that as a student and have no one really talk about it.--joe HISPA #69 The Best Band in the WORLD!!! The new full length album "See What You Can Find" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #13 September 28, 2004 oh, don't worry, people were talking about it the IAF guy there had a good long talk w/ him, I believe the S&TA was over there too. whatever, at least he got a kewl nickname out of it?! (tree dweller) BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #14 September 28, 2004 QuoteI dunno if this was said or not...but I remember my days starting to jump when they said "DO NOT MAKE A LOW TURN" at a 100ft...the student could have heard those words lingering in his/her head. Target fixation (Or obstical obsession as it's know elsewhere) is common when people are under stress. Many "victims" simply don't realise that when hanging between your risers, if you are comfortably looking at something - you're heading right for it. I think you may be on to something with the low turn info lingering in the back of the mind. Many students understand the rules - but fail to prioritise them. Priorities of freefall? 1. Pull 2. At the correct altitude 3. Preferably stable Priorities of landing? 1. Level wing 2. Open area 3. Flare for landing 4. Preferably into wind tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #15 September 28, 2004 Target fixation can strike jumpers of any experience level – it’s more an innate psychological reaction as opposed to something that affects only newbies. Check out the thread about a guy swooping into a golf cart: going on a couple of thousand jumps and he swoops into the only damn object in sight. He blames it mainly on target fixation – it can happen to anyone. Yes as a jumper with only a couple of hundred jumps it’s more likely to happen… that’s one reason for lower wing loadings. Yes as a student with only a couple of jumps it’s far far more likely to happen – coupled with the fact that often the skills required to avoid the target aren’t yet present. Don’t think you’re in anyway out of the woods (pun intended). None of us are! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #16 September 28, 2004 QuoteMan, that's rough, I hope I never end up doing that. What do people do? As for how it happens, it's generally an unconsious thing. The jumper fixates on looking at the object (ironically, usually the one they most want to avoid) and either shifts in their harness or puts a slight toggle turn in as a result of looking at it... similar to freefall - you look where you want to go yeah? Scared the crap out of us... we thought he'd been diced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #17 September 28, 2004 QuoteTarget fixation can strike jumpers of any experience level – it’s more an innate psychological reaction I got a couple of videos of the few last weeks where you can see a light post, some kind of piece of wood (like for a fence) in the middle of nowhere etc etc... coming just in the center of the image.... yes these were my jumps scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #18 September 28, 2004 My DZ had (closed this weekend ) a fairly tight experienced jumper landing area due to a treeline / buildings. If you have to make a low turn to avoid a canopy you didn't see till the last second it would be pretty easy to hit a tree. Target fixation is one thing, but it's really easy to focus on your approach and ignore what's happening around you.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #19 September 28, 2004 QuoteTarget fixation can strike jumpers of any experience level – it’s more an innate psychological reaction as opposed to something that affects only newbies. Two different problems, I think. In high stress where adrenaline flows, the brain functions drop down to the automatic responses. The point of repeated training is so that these responses are better ones. You also tend towards the tunnel vision. I believe target fixation can happen without the stress event, and the consequence is often that your body naturally heads towards it. If you're on a bicycle rolling downhill, merely looking at something towards one side will usually shift you towards it. On a motorcycle in a tight turn, looking at the barbed wire fence on the outside will usually result in you reducing the turn and going for it. Are our necks just too lazy, so the rest of the body helps us keep the focus? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #20 September 30, 2004 It sounded even worse from inside the plane! --- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #21 September 30, 2004 I swap around 2 and 3 on my priorities: I'd rather have a student flare, having adopted the landing position, and hit something at almost zero speed, rather than try to land in an open area...also doubly emphasises not turning low...--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
