skyhighkiy 0 #1 October 4, 2004 So I found myself in an interesting situation yesterrday. Long west spot, we were told winds were west, turns out they were south, sometimes southwest. didn't have that extre tail wind to push us easily back Under extremely high and turbulant wind conditions, My course of action was to try and crab w/ the wind in half, sometimes full brakes to drift with the wind and then let them up to try and cut through and stop the bumping. IN this situation, where you're getting a lot of bumpy turbulance from gusts, would one go in to brakes to try and get back? or would you fly at full flight (to keep the internal pressure of the canopy up in the turbulence) and just look for a dif. landing area? edited to provoke sharing kind of answers rather than backlashing BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #2 October 4, 2004 Quote Really windy day, winds from the south so it was a bit risky and me and two other guys under 100 jumps were the only ones stupid enough to go up (I wouldn't have gone but they were really gung-ho and needed someone tofill the slot)... .. 40 mph West winds... [Edit] It was an insult. [/edit] It's not an insult, but an honest question... winds of 40mph - you shouldn't be jumping. dangerous direction - you shouldn't be jumping. with 2 other 'gung-ho' newbs - you shouldn't be jumping. you asked what I would have done? Stay on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #3 October 4, 2004 well...yeah, no shyit but back to the question, if you had the choice of getting back in brakes, in turbulant winds, or find a different spot, in full flight, which would you choose? just curious. BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #4 October 4, 2004 in response to below: there is little point changing your first post except to get the answers you want to hear - i believe (and I'm sure I'll get flamed just as much as you if I'm wrong) that the only correct course of action was to stay on the ground. You seem to miss the point that it's an extremely dangerous situation and concentrate instead on the academic question of canopy pressurisation in turbulant conditions. You will get some of the answers you're looking for, but I'm afraid I'm not changing my post just to make you feel better. Eventually, when enough people keep telling you that you're being reckless, you may listen. Why would I want to prevent that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #5 October 4, 2004 hey, is there a chance you can get rid of part of your first post? wanna see if I can provoke sharing response rather than backlashing, I changed my original post edit to above: I was talking about getting rid of the part quoting my original post. I do, however, think it's interesting that you posted what you would do in that situation, then deleted it right away. although it was a bad choice on my part, I'm sure there are times when you might find yourself in need of this advice and I wanted more opinions on it...that is what this board is for isn't it? "I should've stayed on the ground" isn't going to help me once I've left the plane you're right, I am changed my post so I can hear what I want to hear. and what I want to hear is something informative, such as what Rob just gave (thanks Rob!) just because I don't talk about what a dumb shyit I am for making a decision like that, doesn't mean I dont know it was stupid. I'd rather learn from it (i.e. staying on the ground next time, and learning about how to cope w/ that situation, should it happen again) than beat myself up over it. so lets be done w/ this newbie thrashing a newbie and get to the chewy, tootsie roll center of skydiving BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 October 4, 2004 Quotewanna see if I can provoke sharing response rather than backlashing, Ok then, sharing response. The best course of action for that situation is to be on the ground drinking beer. Usually (note, I said usually, since I've seen it before, especailly in Texas in the fall/srping with storms popping up instantly). Usually you know about those conditions before you go up, if you don't see it on the ground that instant, you know about an approaching storm line. Trying to beat an apporaching storm is one of the easiest ways to get yourself in a dangerous situation such as the one you were in. Intentially jumping in those conditions is a serious lack of judgement and I would hope that persons who jump in those conditions have a talk about why they did that with their S&TA. With that said, lets say I was caught by a surprise storm (it happens) and the winds did that to me between the time I left the plane and I opened (since hopefully the DZ would radio the plane and have the pilot tell the jumpers). Its painfully obvious under canopy if the winds have picked up to that degree. At that point I would quickly assess (at opening altitude) if I can safely make it back to the DZ. If I can't or it'll be "close" then I'm going to an alternate. I'm choosing then, while still over 2000ft where I'm going and am spending the rest of my time setting up a safe approach to the alternate. Basically 2 things. 1. Jumping in those conditions WILL get you hurt or killed. 2. Plan ahead, don't wait until 1k to realize that you won't make the DZ, that's how you get hurt or killed.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #7 October 4, 2004 Another "real" answer here because, as Dave said, sometime you just might find yourself in a situation that you either did not or could not have predicted. In that instance, which I have been caught in more than a few times in the past 23 years of skydiving, I am going to do a number of things. First of all, I am not going to concern myself that it's bumpy under canopy. There is nothing you can do about it except fly through it and hope you pass out of it before landing. Next, I am going to scan the ground under me and look for potential downwind outs. Next, I am going to start crabbing my ass back to the DZ. While doing so, I am going to repeatedly perform "the accuracy trick" to judge my progress. If you don't know what that is, do a search on this site. If my "accuracy trick" results indicate that I have got it made, then I am going to go for it. If the trick indicates that there is no way I am going to make it to a safe landing on the DZ, then I am going to immediately change course and aim for one of the downwind outs that I chose earlier in the canopy flight. If you knew ahead of time that conditions were sketchy, then it's your bad that you got on the airplane. If you did it anyway and didn't choose a correct spot based on known conditions, then that's also your bad. Still, there will be times when you think you have done everything perfectly where you find yourself "out." Everyone, and I mean everyone, is going to eventually land off the airport. When it happens, you better do what you need to do to get to the ground safely. Getting fixated on the DZ when you know good and well you simply can't make it is not going to help you. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #8 October 4, 2004 OK, I'm not exactly considered sane by most that know me. OK, I'm not sure I've ever been called sane, but winds are not to be messed with. I had one rotor drop me from about 15 feet up, and I'm not looking to do it again any time soon. That said, think about those wind conditions, and how perfect you need to be on landing. OK, ya thinking about it? Now read this post: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=425676#425676 How are your survival chances now? Dude, if you're worried about turbulence, don't jump. Simple. If you are gonna jump anyway, get a stable planform, preferably something airlocked. It need not be high performance, just stable. Mr. Germain designed the airlock for stability in turbulance, the performance came later. Be smart and stay safe or you may not get a chance to try it again.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #9 October 4, 2004 Post is also for skymonkey, thanks guys for the responses, you're definately helping me, and I assure you I'm listening. anyway, regarding bumpiness under canopy, the question isn't about how smooth the ride is, it's about the instability of the system in bumpy winds, when the brakes are on. You, personally, what would you do if you did the accuracy trick and saw you could make it in, fairly easily, but only when you were in full brakes and drifting w/ the wind at your back? yet the wind was jerking you around and you risked collapse of the system? Hey Jim, I think I have a pretty good idea of who this is :) anyway, I do want to pick up a new canopy over the winter (Mine's getting a wee tired) and am looking along the lines of something airlocked, a 170 again and semi-elliptical, got suggestions? BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #10 October 4, 2004 I will be the first one to tell you I am no where near qualified to recommend a canopy to anyone. I'll just repeat the old 'talk to people at your DZ, and demo some stuff'. Really. Demo alot. I personally think this: http://www.bigairsportz.com/lotus.php is the ideal all-around canopy. I just can't afford a new canopy. It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #11 October 4, 2004 no no, I don't mean canopies specifically for me, but do you happen to have suggestions of canopies in general that I would look in to and run through w/ DZ ppl that are airlock 170's? I've been asking around a bit I hear you on the money thing! BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #12 October 4, 2004 Quote .. 40 mph West winds... Even in byron we call it at 32.. What were they thinking? chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #13 October 4, 2004 Quoteno no, I don't mean canopies specifically for me, but do you happen to have suggestions of canopies in general that I would look in to and run through w/ DZ ppl that are airlock 170's? I've been asking around a bit I hear you on the money thing! Lotus. But when you land an airlock in high winds.... ....well.... it's kinda hard to collapse.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #14 October 4, 2004 QuoteQuoteno no, I don't mean canopies specifically for me, but do you happen to have suggestions of canopies in general that I would look in to and run through w/ DZ ppl that are airlock 170's? I've been asking around a bit I hear you on the money thing! Lotus. But when you land an airlock in high winds.... ....well.... it's kinda hard to collapse.... My thoughts include: If it is so turbulent that you think you need an airlocked canopy then maybe you should be sitting on the ground rather than jumping. Not to say that airlocks aren't an advantage if you find yourself in turbulent conditions. Just don't like the idea of people thinking that an airlocked canopy is a free pass to jump in overly turbulent winds. (Not that your thinking this, I don't know what your thinking, but I don't want anyone reading this thread to get that idea)~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #15 October 4, 2004 QuoteQuoteno no, I don't mean canopies specifically for me, but do you happen to have suggestions of canopies in general that I would look in to and run through w/ DZ ppl that are airlock 170's? I've been asking around a bit I hear you on the money thing! Lotus. But when you land an airlock in high winds.... ....well.... it's kinda hard to collapse.... I agree 100% Bonnie. You need to get to the tail asap. After that it's a piece of cake. Lotus. (Check the link above in my last post, Budda) You can probably find 'em used from people going down in size or over to Samurai's. I'm looking too, but in the 136 size range. I flew a Jedei many times, and I think I'm going to go a bit back down the performance scale.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #16 October 4, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteno no, I don't mean canopies specifically for me, but do you happen to have suggestions of canopies in general that I would look in to and run through w/ DZ ppl that are airlock 170's? I've been asking around a bit I hear you on the money thing! Lotus. But when you land an airlock in high winds.... ....well.... it's kinda hard to collapse.... My thoughts include: If it is so turbulent that you think you need an airlocked canopy then maybe you should be sitting on the ground rather than jumping. Not to say it wouldn't be more safe. Just don't like the idea of people thinking that an airlocked canopy is a free pass to jump in overly turbulent winds. (Not that your thinking this, I don't know what your thinking, but I don't want anyone reading this thread to get that idea) I hope people don't think it's a free pass. That said, I'll take anything over having my Sabre fold up at 15 or so feet again. One rotor is all it took, and the winds that day were sitting at about 10 mph. Not overly windy at all. Airlocks were purpose designed, and for that reason, they just happen to work well in their designed purpose.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #17 October 4, 2004 Edited slightly to clarify that I don't disagree that they have advantages in turbulent conditions.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #18 October 4, 2004 I would like to know what DZ would let A license jumpers go up in 40 MPH winds? There are not harsh enough words for the stupidity of going up in those conditions. Once you are in them, you are going to get by only on luck, as you have shown very clearly that you posess no skill or jugement. WOW, with 80 whole jumps you would think that you would know by now that you will get back further using your rear risers, not your brakes. *** "we were told winds were west" You might want to actually check these things out for yourself. Thats what a skilled and proficient jumper does. Smae with spotting. Maybe look down once in a while between high fiving your buddies and talking about how cool you are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #19 October 4, 2004 QuoteWOW, with 80 whole jumps you would think that you would know by now that you will get back further using your rear risers, not your brakes. A Sabre does better with Brakes instead of risers. Or so I've heard. I really doubt any DZ let these guys up in 40MPH and gusty winds, maybe 40kph. (Unless 40MPH was uppers and the landing elevation winds were still landable then the uppers only matter for getting back, but not for landing - that's not an issue for jumping regardless of experience - newbies do still need education in that scenario about spots and wind drift, etc of course) In any case, the PD website has plenty of articles and advice for canopy piloting, including specifics about getting back from a long spot. These questions sound troll-like, but still the hypotheticals are good discussions. SHK will either learn or hurt himself, let's help him learn first. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #20 October 4, 2004 Ground winds for that area of Michigan were at least 17mph with gusts to 24 yesterday and Saturday accourding to NWS.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #21 October 4, 2004 the 40's were up high, which is why the pilot told us that for our spot. i was told ground was gusting 21 at the time of our jump. B-licensed skydiver, just haven't recieved # in the mail yet (not that this actually matters) pg. 31 of brian germaine's "the canopy and its pilot" "if you are directly upwind of the target, andthe winds at canopy altitude are honking right along, your best bet may be to hang there in the uppers for as long as possible. bringing the toggles down near the stall point will change the flight dynamics of the canopy to what is referred to as "minimum sink". In deep-brake mode, the canopy descends slower than in full flight, as well as losing most of its airspeed. the central concept this paradigm is that airspeed is not going to get you home, but groundspeed will. Hanging in the upper winds like a hot air balloon, you will use the power of the sky to bring you back to the landing field more effectively than full flight" Yes, rears would've worked well too, but brakes worked just fine to get me in to the clear spot I intended to land. BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #22 October 4, 2004 QuoteWOW, with 80 whole jumps you would think that you would know by now that you will get back further using your rear risers, not your brakes. Guess Scott Miller doesn't know that either, cause he teaches that you'll go farther (with the wind) with 3/4 brakes than with risers in his canopy course. You should tell him he's wrong. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,537 #23 October 4, 2004 As you're drifting around with the wind, don't just identify where you want to land; identify a whole string of them, because with winds a lot faster than your canopy, you might have to exercise your choice. It's much better to land farther away with plenty of clear space, than closer but run into a fence or something because of that last minute surge of speed you didn't expect. Be prepared to flat turn late, and expect to PLF. If you find yourself being dragged, you can pull a toggle until you collapse your canopy. It's not graceful, but it will work. Your gear is there to protect you, and not the other way around. "I didn't want to scuff my rig" is a stupid reason to hurt yourself. These are emergency procedures in an emergency situation. Here is a really good post about another way to figure out if the conditions are flaky. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #24 October 4, 2004 Guess Scott Miller doesn't know that either, cause he teaches that you'll go farther (with the wind) with 3/4 brakes than with risers in his canopy course. You should tell him he's wrong. *** does he say this works for all canopy's? or is there a difference between square-eliptical-crossed braced RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #25 October 4, 2004 No, but there is a difference in trim and break lines on canopies. PD canopies tend to fly better using one method, other manufactors canopies glide better using other methods. I know what my experiences are... but each person really should get out there and try the accuracy trick on about 5-6 skydives practicing first in full glide, then move to 1/4 breaks, on the just jumps go to 1/2 breaks, later go to 3/4 and then try just before the stall and see how the canopy glides. Later try the rear risers and determine for your self how your canopy flies best. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
