Make it back or survive the gusts?

[skyhighkiy 0]

hey, thanks for the advice. although my landing area was HUGE (landed on the opposite side of the runway as the normal landing area, had the entire length of the runway) over by the VOR, I hadn't thought of looking for a string of place to land, my mind has always been on finding one place to land if you land off, thanks, your advice might save my life later.
as for yanking the toggle in, i ended up needing to do that. I landed fine and cranked one toggle hard todrill the nose in to the ground and it collapsed....then I got the bright idea to try and kite my canopy...sucker filled w/ air and nearly lifted me off the ground again, then I had to real one toggle aaaaalll the way in, I guess it was hilarious to see

I did have another question to you all, when I came down for my flare, I flared just a bit and found myself completely stopped about a foot off the ground for a couple seconds ( at least it felt like I was completely still as compared to ground speed) before I got freaked out and cranked theh toggles down.

My question is, on a high-enough winded day, is it possible to stay just a foot off the ground until you choose to come down? in one spot on all 3 dimensions? or would you drift in one of these directions, regardless of how well you controlled your canopy?

Skydive people, skydiive...winter's comming...

BE THE BUDDHA!

[wmw999 2,534]

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then I got the bright idea to try and kite my canopy...

Dude, you've used up a lot of luck. Think about these things before trying them realtime, instead of during -- OK? I'd love to hear you post sometime about the stuff you learned the hard way. But you have to survive it.

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My question is, on a high-enough winded day, is it possible to stay just a foot off the ground until you choose to come down?

If you're willing to try kiting yourself, I'll assume you're capable of trying this too until you figure it out for real.

Don't.
A parachute has no power of its own; it won't hold a stall for very long, and it can't tell how fast the wind is. So no matter what you do, it WILL land when it's run out of either altitude or lift.

It's best if you choose that point yourself. That's what learning your canopy is all about. Take a class -- someone like Scott Miller or Brian Germain can probably tell you about someone who actually did try that, and not only tell you that they were a doofus, but WHY exactly it didn't work.

Nobody has enough luck to learn all of the physical lessons firsthand.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[murps2000 86]

Everyone is dead right in telling you that your judgment was very poor in going up in those conditions. That said, I'd bet nearly every one of us here has done it at one time or another. I know I have, and I'll never do it again. You should be saying the same thing to yourself.

What you read in Brian's book is what he teaches in class, and it does not change with the manufacturer of the canopy. If you've got a tail wind and some ground speed, you'll cover the most distance in brakes because you are flying at your minimum sink rate. As you stated, you're using the power of the sky to get you back.

If you're flying in no wind, crosswind(crabbing), or into a head wind, but making some progress in full flight, rear risers are better because you now want to fly at max glide. This works only up to a point with the head wind, because if it is too strong, you won't make it anywhere no matter what you do. Better to run to another out than to just delay the inevitable.

Some say that you may want to try to penetrate headwinds with your fron't risers, but I wouldn't recommend it to you. The gain is very small when you consider that you kill your glide ratio and you will be landing very quickly if you maintain that flight mode for very long. Perhaps if you are backing out to sea, or in some similar situation that could have been prevented with sound judgement, you would want to use them. Any other, and again, it's better to run to another out.

In severe turbulence it is unwise to spend a lot of effort trying to get closer to the LZ. Accept that you shouldn't be up there at all, and land in the biggest open area that you can find, as far downwind from obstacles as possible. In fact, in high winds at all, not just gusty ones, this should be a consideration. Severe turbulence can exist downwind from a building at a distance of several times it height (see page 44 in your book), so avoid landing in this area.

If you've totally screwed yourself and have to land in a tight area surrounded by obstacles, and it is windy, you should perform your approach into the area in full flight, and set up as short as you think you can get away with. If it's trees around where your landing, you will feel the bottom drop out right as you pass below the tree line, so anticipate the surge, and maybe rotors(downdrafts). Anticipate that you will need to use your toggles at that point to maintain your angle of attack, and your line tension. Whatever airspeed you still have after that you can use to flare with from brakes. You will need to be very careful how you manage your energy in this situation if you don't want to pound in. You really are better off using good judgement, and avoiding this situation altogether.

[jkwon 0]

I've not taken any canopy courses but I did study physics. I just don't see how you'd get a farther glide forward using 3/4 brakes versus rear risers. brakes distort the rear of your canopy and present it to the wind...so if you have high head winds you're actually causing more drag on your canopy. rear risers at the right pressure will actually flatten your canopy and give you LESS drag.

my .02

Also to agree with everyone else...with 40knot gusts...I'd ground myself.

--joe
HISPA #69
The Best Band in the WORLD!!!
The new full length album "See What You Can Find"

[pilotdave 0]

Wind does not affect the drag on your canopy. It does affect your glide ratio with respect to the ground (not with respect to the air though).

I was really surprised that scott miller taught 3/4 brakes as opposed to 1/4 brakes or rear risers. I'm sure it's not true for every canopy, but he suggested trying each way and see what works best, and suggested that 3/4 brakes will be best for most canopies.

The explanation is simple. Brakes both slow your horizontal speed and vertical speed. But they slow your vertical speed MORE than your horizontal speed. So in no wind or going with the wind, your glide ratio with respect to the ground will be increased. Going into the wind, your glide ratio with respect the the air is increased, but with respect to the ground is decreased.

Just doesn't seem right. I wouldn't have believed it if I had read it on the internet either.

Dave

[skyhighkiy 0]

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I know I have, and I'll never do it again. You should be saying the same thing to yourself.

that's something I said to myself the second my feet gently touched the earth, as long as I can help it, I"ll never do that again.

as far as landing by obstacles, unfortunately, w/ south winds at my D.Z., the l.z. almost always experiences turbulance and rotors. everyone thhat jumps there ends up getting a lot of practice w/ turbulant winds and learning to compensate, even on light-winded days

BE THE BUDDHA!

[el_chester 4]

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I know I have, and I'll never do it again. You should be saying the same thing to yourself.

that's something I said to myself the second my feet gently touched the earth, as long as I can help it, I"ll never do that again.

That's great, but right then (in your own words)...

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I got the bright idea to try and kite my canopy

Hey SkyHighKiy, I find it great that you look for advise here - really. These forums are a great place to do off-DZ homework in order to be a safer, better-prepared skydiver. However IMO you seem not to be taking the advise to heart, or at least your attitude comes across as if though you want to experience first, then learn about your experience. That is plain _____ (OK, forum rules say "no personal attacks" so I'll refrain.). Let's just say it's not a clever way to keep yourself in one piece. Learning everything from your own experience... why?????

I encourage you to read and learn from other people's mistakes. And when someone with 50 times your jump numbers gets angry 'cause they feel you're not listening, well, understand they are probably frustrated because in you they see a potential accident that "could have been prevented but wasn't". I hope you don't have to witness -let alone be part of- an accident anytime soon, but if/when you do, probably/hopefully you'll take the time to think about the dangers in this sport. My advise (even as a relatively low-timer myself), is to hold your horses, learn fast, but don't risk.

I have read your polemic threads ("Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :)" "Night jumps" "How does one slam into a tree" "slow approach question") and buddy, while I really understand your enthusiasm about joining this sport, (I was the same - and still am!) I am not surprised that you got a warning thread dedicated just to you "think you're an exceptional student? Read this". And your answer there:

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It's possible that you'll have an "I told you so" thread for me. Hell, when it happens (providing I survive) I'll throw up my own "you told me so" thread.

Really, SHK, the way I see it, most people here are not trying to demonstrate superiority or better skills when they, they are just trying to help. So bottom line:

PLEASE, SKYHIGHKIY, BE SAFE

PS I am starting to beleive the troll theory... but still wanna help
PS Where do you think you fit in the sentence on my signature? I hope these are not wasted keystrokes...

Edited to add:
I just read your first time ever post on DZ.com. You were probably sub-50 jumps and were asking questions about swooping and head-down flying. Both are fun disciplines (I'm a beginner in both and enjoying the learning) but you still have to learn so many basics to go into them... really, that post is so like all your posts... wanting to run before you can crawl. Once again, I don't know you and still I've read you enough to tell you I'd hate to read an incident report about you, so p-l-e-a-s-e, keep it safe. It's not for nothing that you've gotten SO MANY warnings in so many different tones from so many people.

--
Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it.

[bobsled92 0]

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.. 40 mph West winds...

Even in byron we call it at *32.. What were they thinking?

*40 mph at 3,000ft or ground...big difference

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[somethinelse 0]

Our's is a very small dz out of a hangar at a municiple airport.

Please do not be so quick to bash the dz.
We are not high tech with all the electronic gagetry of some of the super-duper dzs that some of you all are jumping outa. Sometimes it really is just a major blunder due to breezy winds at ground level and high ones at altitude.
This seems to be common in our part of Michigan.

In defense of Kiy. Who I know...
He actually is a good jumper, who most likely got blind-sided by the real strength of the winds.

PS
Kiy- Be SAFE...
If in doubt- DO NOT jump!

-LiLa.

[PhreeZone 20]

Flight Service is just a phone call away... We make phone calls usually a few times a day to get updated winds aloft and forcasted winds. Its free and usually very accurate.

Based on the predictions we've sat down even though it was beautiful and sure enough... a front blows through and the winds spike 10-15 mph higher then what they were only 30 minutes before.

Ask your DZ how often they get wind updates, using the forcasts will determine your spot with out a wind dummy load.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 3,070]

>would one go in to brakes to try and get back? or would you fly at full
> flight (to keep the internal pressure of the canopy up in the turbulence)
> and just look for a dif. landing area?

1. choose the best landing area you can; at those winds, even upwind bushes will be causing nasty rotors.

2. don't worry about turbulence up high. Brakes will decrease your internal pressure but also cause the canopy to reinflate quickly if it does collapse on you (that's why your brakes are stowed for opening) so it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. If holding brakes will help you get to a safer landing area, by all means, do it.

[billvon 3,070]

> brakes distort the rear of your canopy and present it to the wind...so if
> you have high head winds you're actually causing more drag on your
> canopy. rear risers at the right pressure will actually flatten your canopy
> and give you LESS drag.

Rear risers distort the entire canopy, not just the trailing edge. In most canopies, adding rear riser will result in a "step" in the canopy, which reduces efficiency, but also flattens the canopy. Usually this gives you a slightly better glide.

Some other tricks that can be more effective - loosen your chest strap; even get a longer one put on so you can allow the risers to spread that much further. That will help your glide a lot more, since your canopy will cathedral less. Kill your slider and pull it behind your head. That also allows it to spread out more. If you want a bit more glide in calm winds, try spreading your rear risers with your hands; this will pull down the center of the canopy a bit, which has the result of reducing cathedral even further. Note that some of these tricks may increase your glide ratio but reduce your speed, so if you are bucking a headwind they may not help at all.

[skyhighkiy 0]

Hey guys, I was gonna take a break from the forums for awhile but I Feel as if this needs to be replied to in order to get blame off of the wrong party, then I'll recess for awhile again.

we were told what the ground winds were before we got up off the ground. we were told halfway up what the winds were up high and down low, and we were told right before we got out the door. this was complete err on the part of us, (specifically me for the long spot) and no fault of "lack of knowledge"

we knew what we were getting in to when we got in to it....yet we still, stupidly, decided to do it.

I wasn't blind-sided by any means, although thank you for the attempt to defend me
I was really quite nervous to go up (one of the only times I was ever quiet on a plane ride) and am lucky to have landed where I did (clean air, although hard wind) rather than the L.Z. as well as lucky to have escaped without injury.

I take full responsibility for my decision, thanks for the input to the thread though, Lila
but my personal endangerement was all my fault.

...aaaaand on the bright side got in some really nice jumps today

BE THE BUDDHA!

[DJL 235]

If the difference between me getting back or not is in the margin of a little input to my risers then I'm not going to even try it. What's the big deal in landing out? I'll take an out any day rather than end up over some trees and have that tail wind die on me, or reach an altitude where I'm going cross-wind.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[LawnDart21 0]

In reply to: "we knew what we were getting in to when we got in to it....yet we still, stupidly, decided to do it."

I'm curious at 80 jumps, how you knew what you were getting into? I'm assuming you must have been there and done that before so to speak, so you knew what to expect. At 80 jumps.

Why is it on those high wind, questionable jumping condition days, you see jumpers with 1000s of jumps sitting on the ground and you see 50-300 jump jumpers boarding the plane?

Next time you find yourself in that position, take a look around the DZ, if the grey haired jumpers are playing cards instead of jumping, maybe you should be to.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[rhino 0]

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Some other tricks that can be more effective - loosen your chest strap; even get a longer one put on so you can allow the risers to spread that much further. That will help your glide a lot more, since your canopy will cathedral less. Kill your slider and pull it behind your head. That also allows it to spread out more. If you want a bit more glide in calm winds, try spreading your rear risers with your hands; this will pull down the center of the canopy a bit, which has the result of reducing cathedral even further. Note that some of these tricks may increase your glide ratio but reduce your speed, so if you are bucking a headwind they may not help at all.

Good advice.. It also helps to get into a tucked position creating less drag.

[skyhighkiy 0]

....see now...I'm kinda curious at to how you could not know what you're getting in to by a basic assessment of what's going on around you, given that you've studied how wind acts around obstacles and what it does to your canopy?

the simple answer to the young vs. the old is that the old have been around this long enough, to them it's like "eeh, there'll always be tomarrow"
the young guys are hungry for sky, and that clouds are judgement about going up in certain conditions, especially when we are feeling the bite of fall and we know we have less than a month before the D.Z. closes and it's too cold to jump...

6 months in to the winterish hell hole of michigan....put my baby away for a half year...*shudder*

BE THE BUDDHA!

[DJL 235]

Again, all this great data on the physics of canopy flight....

IF YOU CAN'T GET BACK WITH 1000 FT TO SPARE THEN PLAN AHEAD AND PICK A BIG FLAT FIELD.

Yes, landing out poses its own hazards. But with the time you're spending to wring every bit of performance out of your canopy and reduce drag as you crab and ebb closer to the DZ, you're passing great places to land. If you wait until 1000 ft then you're left with a limited selection. At my DZ alone there have been plenty of injuries and people landing in the brush or even the trees because they ran out of time in an effort to get back to the DZ.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 3,070]

>if the grey haired jumpers are playing cards instead of jumping, maybe you should be to.

Guys, enough of this. He screwed up. He learned from it. Hearing the same thing 45 times instead of 40 is not noticeably helpful.

[somethinelse 0]

KIY-

REALLY, MAN!
Ya seriously need to MELLOW OUT.
For crying out loud-
You live in the SAME TOWN AS THE DZ...
You can easily GO ANOTHER DAY-
Like ANY ol' WEEKDAY!

Take your time.

Enjoy what you are doing.

Really.
It's ALL good...

• Quote

[somethinelse 0]

PHREEZONE-

Thanx! I'll be sure to check into that in the future.
I really appreciate that info.

Blues!-LiLa.

[raymod2 1]

Section 2-1(F) of the S.I.M. states:

"Maximum grounds winds... (f)or licensed skydivers are unlimited"

This is a personal choice. It is no more appropriate to ridicule someone for jumping in windy conditions than it is to ridicule someone for sitting out a load in windy conditions.

[LawnDart21 0]

When is the last time a jumper broke a femur from sitting out a load? If ridicule keeps a jumper from jumping that shouldn't be in the air in the first place, then I think it very appropriate.

Personal choice eh? It's not a question of whether one could jump, it's sometimes a question of whether a one should jump.

Last point, then I'll leave this alone, lest I get the thread locked.

Skydiving is not a sprint, it is a marathon, it's been said a zillion times, old timers got to be old timers for a reason, they paced themselves. This sport has a very small margin for error and a HUGE potential price to pay for errors in judgement, even minor ones, even "just that once" can be enough to ruin your day.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[raymod2 1]

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When is the last time a jumper broke a femur from sitting out a load?

Four years in the sport and you still don't get it? It's always safer to sit on the ground.

"The gods envy us. They envy us because we are mortal. Because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we are doomed." -Achilles (Troy)

[LawnDart21 0]

You misread my post.

Where I agree with you: Ridiculing a jumper for deciding to stay on the ground is not appropriate.

Where I disagree with you: Ridiculing a jumper for deciding to jump in dangerous conditions, I think is very, very appropriate. I actual think its our responsibility to each other to do it. Why? Becuase it just might actually stop a jumper from making a jump that they probably shouldn't make.

Hence, my response "Nobody femured in by sitting on the ground" was aimed at your statement that both forms of ridicule were inappropriate. My answer to you was/is, that I disagree, ridiculing a jumper for deciding to jump in high/questionable winds is a very appropriate thing, becuase if my ridicule keeps that person on the ground, they will be less likely to get hurt because....(drum roll please).............nobody breaks a femur sitting on the ground..............and that was the message in my last post.

Don't be so quick to judge me based on two lines of text. I've been "getting it" since jump #1.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.