TALONSKY 0 #26 November 2, 2004 QuoteI skipped the H-mod and went straight for the COMP Cobalt and I'm very glad. Quote I skipped the buying a Cobalt altogether and got an Icarus Crossfire and loved it ( I also hear that this is by far the best way to deal with the quality problem Atair seems to have) until I went x-braced. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bobsled92 0 #27 November 2, 2004 CC 170 1.6 load with 150 jumps is good enough for me._______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #28 November 3, 2004 I put a LOT of jumps on Atair stuff when I was jumping them and never had a bad opening. I had a Viper 150, Alpha 84, a Cobalt 85, H-modded 85, 75, H-modded 75, CC 75, and a CC 65. The H-modded 75 was my favorite of them all and it is still being jumped here in town. In my opinion, the H-mod is the best $150 a person can spend on an open-nosed canopy. That said, I still think my old Alpha 84(actually an Atair "Impulse") flew better than all of the newer Atair stuff I had. All of my canopies opened at least as well as my two Stillettos, but all dove longer and swooped farther. I jumped Stillettos (a 107 and a 97) for six years prior to moving away from PD for a couple of years. A Stilletto is a fine canopy, but I wanted something with a little more dive. Since I didn't want a Velocity yet, I went with the then-new Vengeance. I didn't really like the Vengeance so I sold it very-quickly and got an Alpha. Back then, it was Alphas and the then-new Icarus crossbraces that won all the swoop meets. In today's world, I would have moved from the ST to the Katana and been very happy. That said, I would never recommend a Katana as a first Elliptical. It's all about using the right tool for the job. I keep a Sabre2 97 in my wingsuit rig and a Velocity 79 in my swoop rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites imdskydiver 0 #29 November 3, 2004 I have 600 jumps on a h-mod 120 and about 60 0n a CC105 , The openings are great on both canopies but to date i can not make the CC105 swoop as far as the 120 , It is a lot faster ,it turns quicker and dives harder but i find that it is lacking in lift , Maybe i just need more time under it . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #30 November 3, 2004 Both of my CC's turned faster in front riser dives than my H-mods (with the same amount of input) and required different flying styles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicknitro71 0 #31 November 3, 2004 QuoteThat said, I still think my old Alpha 84(actually an Atair "Impulse") flew better than all of the newer Atair stuff I had. I could not agree more. I think an H-mod Viper or Alpha is the one of the best (if not THE) all around 9-cell canopy ever made including current production. And the thing you can pick them up so cheep!Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicknitro71 0 #32 November 3, 2004 QuoteThe openings are great on both canopies but to date i can not make the CC105 swoop as far as the 120 , It is a lot faster ,it turns quicker and dives harder but i find that it is lacking in lift , Maybe i just need more time under it I think you might be overloading the canopy too much, for distance. The 120 might be closer to the optimal WL for that canopy that is IMHO around 1.7. Smaller is not always better.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bobsled92 0 #33 November 4, 2004 See, I did pay attention to you when you gave me advice now I have a GREAT CC 170_______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #34 November 4, 2004 Quote From reading all the post on the Cobalt over the past couple of years, it seems as though Atair has some quality issues. It seems that some open and fly great while others open really hard and have to modify things in order to get them to open OK. Kirk I agree Kirk. I'm just not sure that their ratio of bad to good canopies are as high as a lot of people think it is. Attair usa's technique in dealing with unhappy customers and dealers didn't help things. I like Dan and also understand what he was saying but some people took his words as an attack. Stinker canopies should have been removed from circulation. They didn't like the size of the PC to match the size of canopy theory as most rigs just come with one standard size PC. This is not just Attairs reasoning but many riggers that make custom PC follow this line of logic. In the end, I've deployed various size cobalts at various speeds and loadings from 1.1~ 1.8 mixing and matching PC, bridles & D-bags sometimes even going freestow and it all has very little effect on that canopys opening character. A great many people ridiculed the two stage openning as advertised on their website. I've only jumped one cobalt that did it just like the advertised 2-stage, although all opened soft... very soft. Very few dealers liked their willingness to put someone with 150 some jumps under one. To them it was reckless. Attair had years of data showing that its wingloading and not just their planform that should be such a concern. They believe that a lightly loaded cobalt behaves just like a lightly loaded sabre 2 also aimed at the new jumper market. This arguement continues. I found a lot of people that bad mouthed the cobalt have never even jumped one...... not once ever. Most people will say that they fly great. I know a few people that after many X-fire jumps prefer the cobalt. And X-fires are very popular down here. Rarely do we hear that they suck as a wing. The worst responseas far as flight goes, from some that had a cobalt grudge, stated to me that they are ok were at least as good as a stiletto. But in their opinion their were better choices out now. A small handfull of people absolutely loved it but feared having to have a rigger do hand built relines instead of factory replacement. I've got five riggers that prefer to do their own relines instead of waiting for any factory follow-up. Its how they keep up their skills. In the end I have to say jump and try em all. Don't let the mob decide what you want or need. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #35 November 4, 2004 I believe that a company should let their product speak for it self. I think that most canopy manufactures make some great canopies and some well just OK canopies. I have yet to see any manufacture besides Atair, badmouth their competitors. Yet Atair has been on this site countless time toting how great their product is and how bad their competitors canopies are. Hell, Atair even stated at one time that the Icarus crossfire had a huge design flaw and that NASA was investigating it and Icarus would be out of business in a year. I find a company that will slander a competetor to be just really bad used car sales men. I would never consider Atair do to the way the conduct their business, oh yeah and lets not forget that they love to pimp fully elliptical canopies to beginners too. Oh also their almighty Onyx that they can not figure out the sizes on. Diveout Dan got one that had a written size of 95 crossed out and 105 written next to it, which the 105 was the size it was supposed to be yet when laying it ontop of a VX 109 was at least 15 SQ feet smaller. If you search the swoop forum we have pictures of the canopies on top of each other and Dan’s final review too. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #36 November 4, 2004 I agree with most of the things you say Kirk, I was following along back then too. Although I don't remember the nasa and going out of business comments. Dan compared things in certain ways that some people will interpret as bad-mouthing and other people will see it as just Dan's comparisons or his opinions. Few other reps I've talked to in person won't even engage in conversations about "their" opinions, in comparisons when it come to gear, probably for fear that a customer might think they are bad-mouthing the other guys product. They do say demo theirs and that you will love theirs but they avoid getting dragged into a shoot out over gear. In retrospect Attair should have just quietly removed offending canopies from the Demo rotation and worked harder to keep unhappy customers happier. Getting on this forum to explain things was a no win situation for Dan. For various reasons the crowd here was always ready to lynch him . BTW you do realize that before Dan Preston joined attair, Stane had both a sucessfull docile student canopy when lightly loaded and a high performance swoop machine in the hands of competent pilots and both of those are the same canopy as the maligned cobalt. Well except for the different sewing techniqes for the top and bottom skin and a couple of different names? Plenty people hate cobalts but who hates vipers, spaces, impulses? Most people really love those! Dan is an engineer, you guys wanted him to be public relations guy. He is better off working towards attairs military contracts than doing debates on the gear forums. And lastly Kirk, since you seem pasionate about it, I gotta ask. Did you ever jump the cobalt? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #37 November 5, 2004 Well to answer your question, I have not ever jumped an Attair canopy and never will. I was really interested in the cobalt when it came out but got discussed with the company because of Dan Preston. Yes, I know he is not the owner of the company. I was way beyond sick of Dan’s post here on these forums how Icarus was going under and Dan had the inside scoop from NASA, which gee never really came out (even when we kept asking Dan about it.). Yes all of that stuff is accient history I just do not care for a company that would let an employee spew that kind of garbage. Anyway as I said in my very first post my opinion is limited to the canopies I have flown, and I even listed them. The best advice I know and have seen on canopies is demo a lot of them and make your own decision. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #38 November 5, 2004 Quote Well to answer your question, I have not ever jumped an Attair canopy and never will. I was really interested in the cobalt when it came out but got discussed with the company because of Dan Preston. Yes, I know he is not the owner of the company. Kirk Yeah I kinda figured this. And this story isn't the exception, I find its the rule when it comes to the people that hate the cobalt. Besides a few well documented cases of a bad canopy in the field ( and every manufacturer has had a few ) the real problem is with the company's marketing or one individual in the company and how they handled the problem canopys from the field. Its a shame when a product gets a bad rap not on product performance but for other reasons or worse gets judged without any testing of the actual product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bobsled92 0 #39 November 5, 2004 My "actual product" has been excellent for me and I didn't have to do anyhting special or different that I do with my Triathalon. I was told, you must do a few special things for good opening and I just stuck to good packing practices (no trash packing) and I have gotten great opening even with my Speed Skydiving Practice and in World Cup (when I push the envelope hard). I couldn't be happier and same was said for all those I let try it._______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #40 November 8, 2004 QuoteAlthough I don't remember the nasa and going out of business comments. Not very hard to find. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=77956;search_string=nasa;#77956 I don't like the cobalt, and I have jumped one. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ematteo 0 #41 November 8, 2004 Quote A small handfull of people absolutely loved it but feared having to have a rigger do hand built relines instead of factory replacement. I've got five riggers that prefer to do their own relines instead of waiting for any factory follow-up. Its how they keep up their skills. I just ordered an Atair lineset for my comp cobalt. They are manufactured in Europe at the factory (delivery takes a while) and cost $150. I was told that Atair USA also has a master rigger on staff who can install the lines, although I plan to have that done locally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #42 November 9, 2004 Not very hard to find. I don't like the cobalt, and I have jumped one. _Am Thanks Andy, you are right its there. It was before I had interest in the canopy and I didn't do a search when it came up again. Still I would buy another cobalt and would buy a crossfire also. Both good product judged by the many people that jump them down here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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bobsled92 0 #27 November 2, 2004 CC 170 1.6 load with 150 jumps is good enough for me._______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #28 November 3, 2004 I put a LOT of jumps on Atair stuff when I was jumping them and never had a bad opening. I had a Viper 150, Alpha 84, a Cobalt 85, H-modded 85, 75, H-modded 75, CC 75, and a CC 65. The H-modded 75 was my favorite of them all and it is still being jumped here in town. In my opinion, the H-mod is the best $150 a person can spend on an open-nosed canopy. That said, I still think my old Alpha 84(actually an Atair "Impulse") flew better than all of the newer Atair stuff I had. All of my canopies opened at least as well as my two Stillettos, but all dove longer and swooped farther. I jumped Stillettos (a 107 and a 97) for six years prior to moving away from PD for a couple of years. A Stilletto is a fine canopy, but I wanted something with a little more dive. Since I didn't want a Velocity yet, I went with the then-new Vengeance. I didn't really like the Vengeance so I sold it very-quickly and got an Alpha. Back then, it was Alphas and the then-new Icarus crossbraces that won all the swoop meets. In today's world, I would have moved from the ST to the Katana and been very happy. That said, I would never recommend a Katana as a first Elliptical. It's all about using the right tool for the job. I keep a Sabre2 97 in my wingsuit rig and a Velocity 79 in my swoop rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
imdskydiver 0 #29 November 3, 2004 I have 600 jumps on a h-mod 120 and about 60 0n a CC105 , The openings are great on both canopies but to date i can not make the CC105 swoop as far as the 120 , It is a lot faster ,it turns quicker and dives harder but i find that it is lacking in lift , Maybe i just need more time under it . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #30 November 3, 2004 Both of my CC's turned faster in front riser dives than my H-mods (with the same amount of input) and required different flying styles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #31 November 3, 2004 QuoteThat said, I still think my old Alpha 84(actually an Atair "Impulse") flew better than all of the newer Atair stuff I had. I could not agree more. I think an H-mod Viper or Alpha is the one of the best (if not THE) all around 9-cell canopy ever made including current production. And the thing you can pick them up so cheep!Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #32 November 3, 2004 QuoteThe openings are great on both canopies but to date i can not make the CC105 swoop as far as the 120 , It is a lot faster ,it turns quicker and dives harder but i find that it is lacking in lift , Maybe i just need more time under it I think you might be overloading the canopy too much, for distance. The 120 might be closer to the optimal WL for that canopy that is IMHO around 1.7. Smaller is not always better.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsled92 0 #33 November 4, 2004 See, I did pay attention to you when you gave me advice now I have a GREAT CC 170_______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #34 November 4, 2004 Quote From reading all the post on the Cobalt over the past couple of years, it seems as though Atair has some quality issues. It seems that some open and fly great while others open really hard and have to modify things in order to get them to open OK. Kirk I agree Kirk. I'm just not sure that their ratio of bad to good canopies are as high as a lot of people think it is. Attair usa's technique in dealing with unhappy customers and dealers didn't help things. I like Dan and also understand what he was saying but some people took his words as an attack. Stinker canopies should have been removed from circulation. They didn't like the size of the PC to match the size of canopy theory as most rigs just come with one standard size PC. This is not just Attairs reasoning but many riggers that make custom PC follow this line of logic. In the end, I've deployed various size cobalts at various speeds and loadings from 1.1~ 1.8 mixing and matching PC, bridles & D-bags sometimes even going freestow and it all has very little effect on that canopys opening character. A great many people ridiculed the two stage openning as advertised on their website. I've only jumped one cobalt that did it just like the advertised 2-stage, although all opened soft... very soft. Very few dealers liked their willingness to put someone with 150 some jumps under one. To them it was reckless. Attair had years of data showing that its wingloading and not just their planform that should be such a concern. They believe that a lightly loaded cobalt behaves just like a lightly loaded sabre 2 also aimed at the new jumper market. This arguement continues. I found a lot of people that bad mouthed the cobalt have never even jumped one...... not once ever. Most people will say that they fly great. I know a few people that after many X-fire jumps prefer the cobalt. And X-fires are very popular down here. Rarely do we hear that they suck as a wing. The worst responseas far as flight goes, from some that had a cobalt grudge, stated to me that they are ok were at least as good as a stiletto. But in their opinion their were better choices out now. A small handfull of people absolutely loved it but feared having to have a rigger do hand built relines instead of factory replacement. I've got five riggers that prefer to do their own relines instead of waiting for any factory follow-up. Its how they keep up their skills. In the end I have to say jump and try em all. Don't let the mob decide what you want or need. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #35 November 4, 2004 I believe that a company should let their product speak for it self. I think that most canopy manufactures make some great canopies and some well just OK canopies. I have yet to see any manufacture besides Atair, badmouth their competitors. Yet Atair has been on this site countless time toting how great their product is and how bad their competitors canopies are. Hell, Atair even stated at one time that the Icarus crossfire had a huge design flaw and that NASA was investigating it and Icarus would be out of business in a year. I find a company that will slander a competetor to be just really bad used car sales men. I would never consider Atair do to the way the conduct their business, oh yeah and lets not forget that they love to pimp fully elliptical canopies to beginners too. Oh also their almighty Onyx that they can not figure out the sizes on. Diveout Dan got one that had a written size of 95 crossed out and 105 written next to it, which the 105 was the size it was supposed to be yet when laying it ontop of a VX 109 was at least 15 SQ feet smaller. If you search the swoop forum we have pictures of the canopies on top of each other and Dan’s final review too. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #36 November 4, 2004 I agree with most of the things you say Kirk, I was following along back then too. Although I don't remember the nasa and going out of business comments. Dan compared things in certain ways that some people will interpret as bad-mouthing and other people will see it as just Dan's comparisons or his opinions. Few other reps I've talked to in person won't even engage in conversations about "their" opinions, in comparisons when it come to gear, probably for fear that a customer might think they are bad-mouthing the other guys product. They do say demo theirs and that you will love theirs but they avoid getting dragged into a shoot out over gear. In retrospect Attair should have just quietly removed offending canopies from the Demo rotation and worked harder to keep unhappy customers happier. Getting on this forum to explain things was a no win situation for Dan. For various reasons the crowd here was always ready to lynch him . BTW you do realize that before Dan Preston joined attair, Stane had both a sucessfull docile student canopy when lightly loaded and a high performance swoop machine in the hands of competent pilots and both of those are the same canopy as the maligned cobalt. Well except for the different sewing techniqes for the top and bottom skin and a couple of different names? Plenty people hate cobalts but who hates vipers, spaces, impulses? Most people really love those! Dan is an engineer, you guys wanted him to be public relations guy. He is better off working towards attairs military contracts than doing debates on the gear forums. And lastly Kirk, since you seem pasionate about it, I gotta ask. Did you ever jump the cobalt? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #37 November 5, 2004 Well to answer your question, I have not ever jumped an Attair canopy and never will. I was really interested in the cobalt when it came out but got discussed with the company because of Dan Preston. Yes, I know he is not the owner of the company. I was way beyond sick of Dan’s post here on these forums how Icarus was going under and Dan had the inside scoop from NASA, which gee never really came out (even when we kept asking Dan about it.). Yes all of that stuff is accient history I just do not care for a company that would let an employee spew that kind of garbage. Anyway as I said in my very first post my opinion is limited to the canopies I have flown, and I even listed them. The best advice I know and have seen on canopies is demo a lot of them and make your own decision. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #38 November 5, 2004 Quote Well to answer your question, I have not ever jumped an Attair canopy and never will. I was really interested in the cobalt when it came out but got discussed with the company because of Dan Preston. Yes, I know he is not the owner of the company. Kirk Yeah I kinda figured this. And this story isn't the exception, I find its the rule when it comes to the people that hate the cobalt. Besides a few well documented cases of a bad canopy in the field ( and every manufacturer has had a few ) the real problem is with the company's marketing or one individual in the company and how they handled the problem canopys from the field. Its a shame when a product gets a bad rap not on product performance but for other reasons or worse gets judged without any testing of the actual product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsled92 0 #39 November 5, 2004 My "actual product" has been excellent for me and I didn't have to do anyhting special or different that I do with my Triathalon. I was told, you must do a few special things for good opening and I just stuck to good packing practices (no trash packing) and I have gotten great opening even with my Speed Skydiving Practice and in World Cup (when I push the envelope hard). I couldn't be happier and same was said for all those I let try it._______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #40 November 8, 2004 QuoteAlthough I don't remember the nasa and going out of business comments. Not very hard to find. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=77956;search_string=nasa;#77956 I don't like the cobalt, and I have jumped one. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ematteo 0 #41 November 8, 2004 Quote A small handfull of people absolutely loved it but feared having to have a rigger do hand built relines instead of factory replacement. I've got five riggers that prefer to do their own relines instead of waiting for any factory follow-up. Its how they keep up their skills. I just ordered an Atair lineset for my comp cobalt. They are manufactured in Europe at the factory (delivery takes a while) and cost $150. I was told that Atair USA also has a master rigger on staff who can install the lines, although I plan to have that done locally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #42 November 9, 2004 Not very hard to find. I don't like the cobalt, and I have jumped one. _Am Thanks Andy, you are right its there. It was before I had interest in the canopy and I didn't do a search when it came up again. Still I would buy another cobalt and would buy a crossfire also. Both good product judged by the many people that jump them down here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
