Velocity and wing loading

[MaybeMor 0]

Hi ya guys
One Q plz,

What's the recommended wingloading for the Velo. (120 for my Q)?

What will be underloading it?
and, what will be then overloading it?
(ie. when will iy fly shit? :)


Cheers 4 your answers,

Dave.

David Mor

[piisfish 140]

according to the PD website :

Quote

IV. Size does matter: General: As everyone knows, many people have been flying their Stilettos at wing loadings of 1.4 to 2.1 pounds per square foot, rather than staying below the 1.3 pounds listed on the warning label. Those who have been doing this with good success will be pleased with a Velocity at 1.2 to 2.2 pounds per square foot, though it can be loaded as lightly as 1.0 pounds per square foot if that is what a person is used to. The warning label shows this entire range, but this should not be interpreted to mean that a person who can fly and land a Stiletto at 1.3 should go straight to 2.2 on a Velocity!..

So what size is best for you? We strongly believe in avoiding a large change in canopy size when downsizing, regardless of how efficient the canopy is or how it is placarded. Think about your present canopy, and your present skills. Is it a real handful to fly? Do you feel comfortable in traffic? Are your friends concerned about your flying? Really think about whether you want to go faster and are prepared for landing a small Velocity in an unexpected, tight landing area. Downsizing a small amount may be appropriate if you’re looking for more speed and have the necessary skills. If not, its perfectly acceptable to stay with the same sized Velocity, or even one a little larger, as long as you’re above a minimum of 1.0 pounds per square foot. When downsizing, we strongly recommend no more than 15% increments. You’ll need this time to get used to dealing with traffic when you’re going so much faster. The ability to fly the canopy really slowly while looking way ahead becomes very critical after down sizing, in order to create enough separation from traffic.

now my personal thought : 300 jumps = nothing to do with a velocity, any size...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[JT-Mirage 0]

Hopefully this canopy is not for you. PD also recommends no less than 1000 jumps for the use of a Velocity. We all know people jump them sooner than that but if your profile is correct with 300 jumps, you have no business on a Velocity. JT

[kaerock 1]

Ahh yes, but the question was about recommended wing-loading, not his profile.
-R

Quote

Hopefully this canopy is not for you. PD also recommends no less than 1000 jumps for the use of a Velocity. We all know people jump them sooner than that but if your profile is correct with 300 jumps, you have no business on a Velocity. JT

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[piisfish 140]

so minimum WL according to PD is :

Quote

If not, its perfectly acceptable to stay with the same sized Velocity, or even one a little larger, as long as you’re above a minimum of 1.0 pounds per square foot.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Spizzzarko 0]

I have found the velocity to be the most complicated canopy I have ever flown! You really have to work at everything to get the canopy to perform. If you are not going to give 110% devotion to this canopy on every jump, then this is not a good canopy for you. There is no "I'm just going to slack off on this jump" with this canopy. Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome performer, but you can put yourself in a hurting really quickly with this canopy. I have flown almost all of the CB canopy's out there, but I think the velocity requires the most experience and attention to detail. So if you truly have three hundred jumps then this canopy is not for you, no matter what you wingload it at.

Ahh yes, the question was about wingloading, and not his profile, but it never hurts to throw in a little cautionary note. I doubt you would let someone you know who has 300 jumps jump a Velocity.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Hey Spizz

I'm not planning on changing canopies anytime soon. I want to be rock solid on my CF2 including flying my rears on my swoops and well I'm not rock solid (slowly getting there) nor am I using my rears on my swoops. But based on your opinions about the various cross-braced canopies you've jumped, which is a good one to start with. I'm thinking you're going to say the FX, but maybe I'm wrong.

Oh and isn't the 2.0:1 to 2.2:1 the range of wingloading to at least start off with with cross-braced canopies?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spizzzarko 0]

Dude Give TWNSNDS 104 FX a try. It's a good CB canopy. It opens awesome, and has a lot of lift. are you going to be out there On Sunday? If so I will see you there at your DZ on Sunday. As far as the loading goes, well a lot of people thought they had to load the CB canopy's up quite a bunch to get good performance out of them, but now a days people are thinking that you really start to lose performance after 2.0 to 2.2. I feel really comfortable in that range at this altitude, but if you go down to 1.8-1.9 at this altitude you really aren't losing that much either. As far loading goes, I would get the biggest canopy you can and wear weight to bring you up to a certain loading! I jumped a CF2 129 last weekend. It was a pretty neat litlle canopy. It was slow compared to the velo, but you can get a lot of range with it. It was a pretty cool little canopy. I would like to try a smaller one some time, but the 129 was pretty cool. I hope to see you up there on Sunday, I think I'm going to work on Lazyboys!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

If so I will see you there at your DZ on Sunday

If Mother Nature cooperates, yes.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

Like it or not, he can post what he likes about the persons poor choices. Just like you can make comments about his posts. Whether it needs to be removed from the thread or not is up to the moderator, not us.

Edit: Some people who are addressing the skill level required are some pretty good pilots who I'd (and do) listen to. Of course that's just me...I want to get better.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

That still has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Neither does this discussion.

I took something good away from what Spizzarko said about jumping Velocity canopies (hey I've seen the dude fly his canopy and respect his skill and experience) and he did address the wingloading question on his next post. There are numerous people in my area jumping velos (some with plenty of experience and some ... well ... no comment ...) and I thought it was good to know that a Velocity might be a more demanding cross-braced canopy than a compareable cross-braced canopy.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[piisfish 140]

so to answer this question

Quote

when will iy fly shit?

IMO at the 1st jump, any wingloading.

as already said, minimum according to PD is 1.0 : 1
maximum ?? apparently people fly it at more than 2.4 : 1

this thread is stupid, this is my opinion.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[JT-Mirage 0]

Not to open a can of worms but here goes. I once asked Jay Moledski the same question this jumper is asking about wing loading. He replied that it was a question hard to answer because the canopy has different performance characteristics at different wing loadings which i am sure everyone reading this post will agree. I guess the question would be easier to answer for this jumper if he was specifying what performance characteristics he was looking for. For example, distance, speed, accuracy, or a somewhat equal combination of all.

And also to ask the question again is this jumper asking just for the sake of wanting to know or is he considering jumping the canopy? JT

[Spizzzarko 0]

Who the hell do you think you are, and what's your problem man? What have I done to you to deserve your snobish response? I don't see your name in green.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

But mine sure is. Keep it civil, boys.

[DancingFlame 0]

Quote

now my personal thought : 300 jumps = nothing to do with a velocity, any size...

I'm pretty sure if he is a good canopy pilot and he loads Velocity 1:1.2, he will be just fine. However at this W/L there won't be any advantages in velocity against other canopies.

[Levin 0]

Quote

I'm pretty sure if he is a good canopy pilot and he loads Velocity 1:1.2, he will be just fine. However at this W/L there won't be any advantages in velocity against other canopies.

the advantage is the motivation to go on a serious diet so that he will be able to decrease or keep his w/l the same while downsizing to a 120. and then there's the added comfort of having to wear a harness that is slightly to big for him. but on the other hand he could enjoy the monetary luxury of buying a new rig, but that would be silly since the velo120 will likely fit in his container that currently holds a vision132. all that just to buy a x-braced canopy that won't do him any good.

[speedy 0]

I jump a velo 90 loaded at 1.9 to 2.2 to 1. The reason for the range in wingload is because I jump with varying amounts of lead depending on what I want to achieve.
The first Velo I jumped was 111 sqft. After landing I went to the demo guy and told him it flew like shit. Perhaps an over exageration, but I did not like it. Then he offered me a 96 to jump. It was then I knew that I wanted the canopy. But not the 96 , the 90.
Although you can load them lighter, I would not bother.
The Velocity is very different to any other canopy I have jumped. With my limited experience (only 400 jumps on a velo) I would say do not buy it unless you want to get into swooping. The are other canopys on the market more suitable for people who don't want to swoop.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

I would say do not buy it unless you want to get into swooping.

There are other canopies to buy when "getting into" swooping. The velocity is for pilots who are already swooping well under their current wing and want the next step.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[speedy 0]

Quote

Quote

I would say do not buy it unless you want to get into swooping.

There are other canopies to buy when "getting into" swooping. The velocity is for pilots who are already swooping well under their current wing and want the next step.

OK, I'll rephrase what I was trying to say. How about this.
I would only recommend buying the velocity if you want to use it for swooping.

I was really only trying to offer my opinion of the canopy and not what qualifications you need to fly it.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[ianmdrennan 2]

I hear ya, and I know it was a nit picky post, but I think some jumpers out there are under the impression that xbraced is now a required swooping wing (my pet peeve). We both know that's BS but we have to be careful how we write things that may reinforce that notion.


Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[JT-Mirage 0]

As stated previously, the manufacturer requires 1000 jumps at any wingloading on that canopy. Lets also remember that wingloading is not the only factor to consider. You will also have a shorter line set, less surface area with the smaller wing which will equal significantly different performance characteristics. If you are basing your answer soley on wing loading ask your self would a sabre 2 210 loaded at 1.5:1 have the same performance characteristics as a sabre 2 135 loaded at 1.5:1? the answer is no. JT

[speedy 0]

Quote

some jumpers out there are under the impression that xbraced is now a required swooping wing

If you want to compete then I guess it is more or less required. How often does a non cross braced win a competition?
If you only want to swoop at your DZ for fun there are other canopys that are great for swooping. One I had some fun with was the R.A.G.E from Paratec. Awsome swoops, fantastic openings.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Quote

If you want to compete then I guess it is more or less required.

Absolutely incorrect! It doesn't matter which canopies are winning the PRO competitions; what matters is one's ability to fly a canopy through a set of entry gates safely and stay within the confines of a course. No, you are not going to show up and win any PRO meet these days (at least in the USA) under a Crossfire (or whichever non-braced canopy you jump), but that is not the point. If you haven't wrung every bit of performance out of your non-braced wing and you can't take that non-braced wing through a course, then you don't have any business trying to do so with a crossbraced canopy. There are very, very few people, even on tour these days, who exploit the full potential of crossbraced wings. There is simply no way that some regular person is going to switch to a crossbraced canopy and magically be competitive. If you do not possess the basic skill-set then you are simply increasing the speed at which you are going to impact the ground when you blow your turn trying to make gates. Seriously. There is nothing stopping any of you from qualifying at the entry level and competing under non-braced wings. By comparison, do any of you believe it plausible for a person to go from driving your family car straight to racing at 200 mph in a NASCAR Nextel ride? There simply must be some sort of advancement criteria followed in order to lend any sort of safety. Watching the race on Sunday does not qualify you to drive that car. Likewise, neither does watching the end of year PST video or "Swoop" qualify you to go out and buy a Velo at 300 jumps and think you are going to qualify for a meet, much less WIN it. Run what you brung, squeeze everything you can out of it, then, when you can truly exploit the more-rigid wing, go ahead and get that braced canopy. Until that point you are truly just making the worst kind of vanity purchase.

Use some common sense, please people.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
a touring PST professional (among other things)

[AggieDave 6]

You really should copy your post and start a new thread, hell, make it a locked sticky, since what you just said has to be said over and over and over and over to every person wanting to get into swooping and wants to be like the big boys.

Hell, I know I'd love to be as good as the big boys, but I've got a long road of learning ahead of me on my XF2.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."