What should my next canopy be?

[AndyMan 7]

I've got roughly 500 jumps on a Stiletto 150 that's loaded pretty high - at about 1.8.

There's some characteristics of this canopy that I just don't like very well.

1) The recovery arc is too short. I initiate 270 turns at about 500 feet. I'd prefer something I can turn higher.
2) Front Riser preasure is too high, I can not use front risers to extend the dive.
3) Low speed lift is not as strong as it should be. It's dificult to land in no-wind days.

I'm not particularly looking to downsize, but looking at the market I realise I might need to do that. The largest Kitana and Velocity are both 120, a big step down from my 150 Stiletto. That would put my wingloading at 2.25 - quite a bit higher than the 1.8 I'm at now.

I'm avoiding the Crossfires because of consistent reports of customer service issues at Icarus.

As far as I can see, that only leaves me with the Samurai and Vengence as viable options. I don't buy into the concept of airlocks in terms of it being more stable, but I can imagine some value in how the airlock reinforces the nose, in a similar manner to crossbracing.

Thoughts?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[AggieDave 6]

I too don't buy into the "I can fly through anything b/c of airlocks" bullshit. If you wouldn't jump an open nosed canopy in the conditions, I don't think you should be jumping in those conditions...


Anyways, I've had pretty good luck with Icarus and the XF2 is a badass canopy. I turn a 270 between 650 and 700ft, it dives hard and flies really well.

If you want to stay away I highly suggest demoing a Vengence and a Sam, with the Vengence it dives hard, it flies well and just keeps going and going and going during a swoop. Just when you think you're going too slow at the end, it just keeps going, pretty freaky but very cool actually.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PhreeZone 20]

If you think the Vengence is good.. try a Sam.... Its what the Vengence tries to be. Long recovery arc, light riser pressure, fairly light rear riser pressure, great responsiveness to toggles and risers. Low speed lift is second to none in my experience. Downwinding it in 3-5 mph winds and barely having to slide it out...All around I think its one of the best 9 cells on the market. Airlocks are an added plus. Watching canopies accordian due to the winds and turbluence is not fun, watching an airlocked wing go right through it with out bucking one one is a great feeling. I'm not talking severe turblence, but the minor stuff.

There is a reason that Airlock pilots keep buying them

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[JumpRu 14]

I'm very happy with Samurai 120 at 1.5 wl. I like how it flies and lands. About airlocks… I think you have to try them and then decide are they helpful or not. My old Saber folded in half couple years ago at 100 ft. so I had my share of troubles with open cell canopies. That was one of the reasons I got myself Samurai.

[kaerock 1]

Samurai.

They make them up to like 170. The Samurai is a very divey canopy and flies flares well (up to about 2.0)

I'm loading my 105 at 2.0 and I keep learning new ways to extend the dive even further...I can push it somewhere above 700ft for a 270 and with it's decently long recovery arc, coming out high is no problem mon, it will still cook for a while afterwards! As far as air-locks...it gives you a little bit more of a rigid wing adding to it's relatively shorter lines in giving an extremely responsive canopy, compared to a Stiletto (and the potential added stability in turbulent air, yadda yadda). Riser pressure is much lower, especially further along in the dive than the Stiletto, so you can muscle it around a bit more too.

I've put about 600 jumps on Stilettos and find the Samurai several orders of magnitude better for swooping or learning to swoop on. Give it a shot, a 150 would probably be perfect for what you want, you *might* want to try a 136, but it'll start getting hard to shut down if you cook in at that wing-loading.

-R

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I've got roughly 500 jumps on a Stiletto 150 that's loaded pretty high - at about 1.8.

There's some characteristics of this canopy that I just don't like very well.

1) The recovery arc is too short. I initiate 270 turns at about 500 feet. I'd prefer something I can turn higher.
2) Front Riser preasure is too high, I can not use front risers to extend the dive.
3) Low speed lift is not as strong as it should be. It's dificult to land in no-wind days.

I'm not particularly looking to downsize, but looking at the market I realise I might need to do that. The largest Kitana and Velocity are both 120, a big step down from my 150 Stiletto. That would put my wingloading at 2.25 - quite a bit higher than the 1.8 I'm at now.

I'm avoiding the Crossfires because of consistent reports of customer service issues at Icarus.

As far as I can see, that only leaves me with the Samurai and Vengence as viable options. I don't buy into the concept of airlocks in terms of it being more stable, but I can imagine some value in how the airlock reinforces the nose, in a similar manner to crossbracing.

Thoughts?

_Am

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[Canuck 0]

If you rule out the Crossfire and buy something else, do yourself a favour and DON'T EVER jump one after, or you'll kick yourself in the ass for not having bought one.

Crossfires kick ass, and as far as I know, Icarus is still the only company that has a 30 day no questions asked exchange.

I've jumped pretty much all the 9-cells on the market. the Crossifre opens, flys, and swoops the best in my experience.

I fly a Velocity now by the way, so this opinion is only slightly bias (I use to have a Crossfire).

Canuck

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

I love my Samurai! Of course, i'm loading under 1.5, so I can't say how it performs at your loading, but at my lower loading I have no problem with riser pressure AT ALL. Dives really well, and I can easily extend the dive by countering with the other riser, very controllable. I get amazing lift on landing, too, never have a problem shutting it down. Recovery arc is loooong, nothing like a Stiletto. I don't have any problem with twitchiness or oversteer, either. Great canopy!

Angela.

side note : i've only flown Sabre II, Stiletto & Jedei before this, so I can't compare the xfire2.

[PhreeZone 20]

>and as far as I know, Icarus is still the only company that has a 30 day no questions asked exchange.

Sure... if they ever process your order in the first place. At least one person here placed an order with the company and they sat on it for while and never did anything about it so he canceled it weeks later.

I have a few Crossfire jumps and its a nice canopy... but I'll take my Sam over it any day

Don't forget about the Vision... never jumped one but its in the same class. Same with the Nitro/Nitron.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[kaerock 1]

I haven't met a Sam/Lotus pilot that thinks they are invincible with an airlocked canopy. If it's a shitty day, it's a shitty day for everyone. I hate windy days, especially turbulent days as much as anyone else and I take the same consideration everyone else does when deciding whether or not to go up in sketchy winds. But also, I've never seen a Sam or Lotus accordion or have cells roll-under on a bumpy day like all the other canopies did.

Someone did mention to me once that XF2s have a slightly curved under-side due to the airfoil shape that can gain some lift under the right circumstances, causing loss of line tension. Just curious if anyone's noticed anything correlating that.

-R

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I too don't buy into the "I can fly through anything b/c of airlocks" bullshit. If you wouldn't jump an open nosed canopy in the conditions, I don't think you should be jumping in those conditions...


Anyways, I've had pretty good luck with Icarus and the XF2 is a badass canopy. I turn a 270 between 650 and 700ft, it dives hard and flies really well.

If you want to stay away I highly suggest demoing a Vengence and a Sam, with the Vengence it dives hard, it flies well and just keeps going and going and going during a swoop. Just when you think you're going too slow at the end, it just keeps going, pretty freaky but very cool actually.

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[Spizzzarko 0]

I have had a lot of good experience with Icarus customer service. I have bought 3 canopys from them in the past.

[hkf 0]

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I've jumped pretty much all the 9-cells on the market. the Crossifre opens, flys, and swoops the best in my experience.

Does that include the Katana?
If so, how do they compare?
(sorry, don't mean to hyjack thread!)

[AMax 0]

I know a lot of people jumping CF2's and never heard anything bad about the airfoil or Icarus customer service.

[chopchop 0]

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Don't forget about the Vision... never jumped one but its in the same class. Same with the Nitro/Nitron.

I jumped the Vision..a Vision 140 loaded at 1.9. Fast, fast, fast.. and ground hungry. It was way fun but I didn't want to get worn out hanging on my rears all day coming back from long spots.. so I went with Pilots..

This is after 600 jumps on Stiletto 150s loaded at 1.8..

chopchop
gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking..

Lotsa Pictures

[AggieDave 6]

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I know a lot of people jumping CF2's and never heard anything bad about the airfoil

I haven't heard anything bad about the XF2 and once I knew who to contact I had nothing but great customer service, but I know more then a few folks around the country have had a hard time with Icarus. I know that Wyatt has really taken care of me in the past and even came through for me recently when I had a lineset question.


(Phree, I guess I need to get a Sam demo and give it a try, huh?)

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Canuck 0]

No I haven't jumped a Katana - I'd love to though.

At this point though it's a useless canopy for anybody looking for something over 120 sq. ft. PD really needs to get some bigger sizes on the market if they are hoping to compete in the niche of second generation HP 9 cells.

Oh yeah, one other canopy to consider if you are thinking about going outside of the North American market. The PV Demon is oustanding value for the money, opens beautifully, and has tons of flare. They have proven to provide great customer service at my DZ. For half the price of anything else on the market - it's worth considering...

Canuck

[hookitt 1]

An Ace 260 should be your next canopy.

Why an Ace 260? Cuz I have one and I would sell it. Sure it's a large 7 Cell canopy designed for BASE but it's a darn good canopy!

It's
BIG!!!
It's
Slow!!!

You'll love it.

It will take the worry out of learning to swoop far.

It's FUN... it' Ace260!!!

edit to address your points of concern.

1) The recover arc will be even shorter
2) Fairly light front riser pressure
3) Easier to land in low to no winds.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[hkf 0]

Yeah, Iknow the sizes are no good for Andy, it was just that you said you'd jumped a load of high performance 9 cells, and I've yet to find someone whos put a load of jumps on the katana and xf2 who can give a good unbiased comparrison

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You sure you don't want to sell him that VX-60 instead?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[hookitt 1]

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You sure you don't want to sell him that VX-60 instead?

Have you ever tried to land a VX-60 in no wind? I'd say it's much less appropriate than say... an Ace 260!!!

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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As far as I can see, that only leaves me with the Samurai and Vengence as viable options. I don't buy into the concept of airlocks in terms of it being more stable, but I can imagine some value in how the airlock reinforces the nose, in a similar manner to crossbracing.

Samurai 150.

I put about 600 jumps on my Stiletto 120 at 1.6-1.7, about 20 on a Samurai 120 at the same loading, and 200+ on my Samurai 105 @ 1.6-1.7. One on a 105 @ 1.9 on a hot summer day at 5000 feet MSL - it shutdown at least as well as my Stiletto 120 at the same exit weight bu was otherwise a bit much.

I don't think it's inappropriate to think of a Samurai as a next-generation Stiletto.

It has similar light toggle pressure and responsiveness that's missing from other canopies. The openings that are comfortable but not too slow and less likely to require correction. The trim is a bit steeper although it flattens out nicely when you spread the rear risers. It has lighter front riser pressure in turns. The recover arc is longer but not like an Extreme FX. It won't return all the way to level flight without input - instead it ends in a shallow dive that's very user-friendly. It seems more sensitive to harness input. It definately stalls slower.

I tried the cross fire (not CF2) and didn't like the responsiveness and control pressures as much.

As far as front riser pressure in general and having to turn too low: fitting your turn to fit the space and altitude available (using both risers and the harness) without finishing early and switching to symetric front risers keeps pressures reasonable. Brian Germain describes this as maintaining roll angle throughout your approach.

[TOTALCHAOS127 0]

Just my 2 cents but i love the crossfire 2 my loading isn't as high. But does everything i want it to do and the opening are the bomb best i have ever jumped. Just stay away from a precision built crossfire 1. I havn't had any trouble with icarus in customer service either.

[brits17 0]

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You sure you don't want to sell him that VX-60 instead?

NO! I am hoarding it, so he'd have to come through ME first! Just try and bulldoze me over, c'mon, just try.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[AggieDave 6]

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Just try and bulldoze me over, c'mon, just try.

*AggieDave nudges Brit over, takes the VX 60 and uses it for a tandem drogue*

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[flyhi 24]

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if they ever process your order in the first place.

In August I signed up on their website for a demo. Gave them my cc number, address, phone,... That was after I tried to call them. Nada yet.

To stir the pot more, what about the RAGE or the Blade?

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[chileanXaos 0]

just buy a xaos is just the best canopy at 2.0 wingloading is not really extreme , it opens like a dream just awesome , better than my crossfire.
and cross braced is the way to go at over 2.0 wingloading