Riser pressure in wind

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

I have had a couple of times that i've jumped in wind (20mph+) where riser pressure has been extreme. I'll start my dive, but can't hold the riser for more than a 90 degree turn, or whatnot. I jump a Samurai and I usually have NO problem with riser pressure at all, and playing around i've even been able to take it around a fully 360 on a riser carve. So, I would like to know if high riser pressure in high wind is a common problem, and why (explanations with light physics are completely welcome!).

Thanks.
Angela.

[marks 0]

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I have had a couple of times that i've jumped in wind (20mph+) where riser pressure has been extreme. I'll start my dive, but can't hold the riser for more than a 90 degree turn, or whatnot. I jump a Samurai and I usually have NO problem with riser pressure at all, and playing around i've even been able to take it around a fully 360 on a riser carve. So, I would like to know if high riser pressure in high wind is a common problem, and why (explanations with light physics are completely welcome!).

Thanks.
Angela.

wind does not affect the riser pressure. it does however affect your "perception" on how fast or slow the turn is going relative to the ground. you may feel like your giving alot of input with a little result because of your groundspeed from the wind. it is a perception thing...

i cant really explain it well maybee , hopefully somone can explain it better.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Yep, Mark got it right (see Mark, miracles can happen, you just have to believe ).

Nothing changes other than ground speed and perception of movement in constant windy conditions.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[TOTALCHAOS127 0]

My suggestion would be it's all in your head. Your canopy doesn't know the difference between 10 mph winds or 100 mph winds. Think of it this way if your practicing up high and the winds at 7000 ft are 60 mph do you actually know that there is a difference in the way your canopy flies. The same thing applys on the ground only this time you may think things are different becuase of you perseption to the ground. Some turbulance is a different thing than just wind and can have effects on the canopy.

I am not a physics major just my thoughts

[kaerock 1]

Perhaps it can be restated as:
How could it be that you perceived a much higher riser pressure on a very windy day when attempting, say, a 180 degree turn. Understandable that the canopy doesn't know the difference when flying in moving air...but how could your perception of riser pressure change? Is it conceivable that flying on a windy day could have some effect on flight dynamics during riser dives...and not necessarily with gusty winds either?

I experienced a similar thing several times, notably on windy days...when riser pressure became very high during a typical dive with the canopy feeling unresponsive and sluggish.


-R

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I have had a couple of times that i've jumped in wind (20mph+) where riser pressure has been extreme. I'll start my dive, but can't hold the riser for more than a 90 degree turn, or whatnot. I jump a Samurai and I usually have NO problem with riser pressure at all, and playing around i've even been able to take it around a fully 360 on a riser carve. So, I would like to know if high riser pressure in high wind is a common problem, and why (explanations with light physics are completely welcome!).

Thanks.
Angela.

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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Perhaps it can be restated as:
How could it be that you perceived a much higher riser pressure on a very windy day when attempting, say, a 180 degree turn. Understandable that the canopy doesn't know the difference when flying in moving air...but how could your perception of riser pressure change? Is it conceivable that flying on a windy day could have some effect on flight dynamics during riser dives...and not necessarily with gusty winds either?

I experienced a similar thing several times, notably on windy days...when riser pressure became very high during a typical dive with the canopy feeling unresponsive and sluggish.

You have a much better way with words.

Thing is, I really COULD NOT hold the dive. The best I can explain it is that I started the turn, and about 100 degrees into it the riser started to resist, to actually pull back... I was FORCED to let up on it because I lacked the strength to fight back. First jump of the day, so shouldn't have been tired. I understand people say this is perception, but irregardless of how fast or slow I felt I was turning I was not able to complete that turn due to riser pressure.

No other explanations? Thanks for the discussion.
Angela.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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Think of it this way if your practicing up high and the winds at 7000 ft are 60 mph do you actually know that there is a difference in the way your canopy flies.

True, when playing with the canopy at altitude, I can still pull off very strong riser turns. Is it possible that turbulant conditions may have presented themselves momentarily causing this issue?

-A

[kaerock 1]

Here's my speculation on one scenario:

Perhaps you were still in recovery from an earlier turn when you started your riser dive on to final to get to your set-up point. This would explain why the riser seemed harder to pull...you were already flying fast and had a lot of lift, thereby making the riser nearly impossible to hold down for the additional amount of time to turn 180 degrees. I can not recall with any certainty that I was not already moving quite fast before initiating my turn when I experienced a similar feeling.

whatcha think?

-R

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Perhaps it can be restated as:
How could it be that you perceived a much higher riser pressure on a very windy day when attempting, say, a 180 degree turn. Understandable that the canopy doesn't know the difference when flying in moving air...but how could your perception of riser pressure change? Is it conceivable that flying on a windy day could have some effect on flight dynamics during riser dives...and not necessarily with gusty winds either?

I experienced a similar thing several times, notably on windy days...when riser pressure became very high during a typical dive with the canopy feeling unresponsive and sluggish.

You have a much better way with words.

Thing is, I really COULD NOT hold the dive. The best I can explain it is that I started the turn, and about 100 degrees into it the riser started to resist, to actually pull back... I was FORCED to let up on it because I lacked the strength to fight back. First jump of the day, so shouldn't have been tired. I understand people say this is perception, but irregardless of how fast or slow I felt I was turning I was not able to complete that turn due to riser pressure.

No other explanations? Thanks for the discussion.
Angela.

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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whatcha think?

I will not discount that as a possibility, although I will note that I frequently make minor changes in heading during my setup and as I recall these have not caused the type of resistance that I felt this time.

-A

[sunnydee123 0]

I think you guys should discuss this in more depth, face to face while snuggled tightly in bed together, knowing that suggestive critiscism is just so you think about other options as to why something felt harder or didn't go like you thought it would.

Love you guys......Coming to Sebastian this weekend, perhaps we can test some of these riser situations/techniques...bla bla bla

Dreams become reality, one choice at a time...

[ianmdrennan 2]

God I'm slow. I just realized who Kaerok is.

See ya in Sebastian if the weathers gonna be nice Dee

BTW I'm putting in my order for no wind now, I know it's a long shot (it is FL and Sebastian after all) but dammit can we have just one meet with no wind

Love ya babe!
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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I think you guys should discuss this in more depth, face to face while snuggled tightly in bed together, knowing that suggestive critiscism is just so you think about other options as to why something felt harder or didn't go like you thought it would.

Love you guys......Coming to Sebastian this weekend, perhaps we can test some of these riser situations/techniques...bla bla bla

Cute

Love you, too. We will probably be out on Sunday this weekend, probably going to slack on Saturday, or do some bike riding then beach slacking. Think you'll be out Sunday? Mike is bugging me about bringing you a cd or something.

And, hell, i'm with Ian, I would like an order of no-wind, too!!

:D
Angela.

[marks 0]

it is somthing very difucult to explain.

but think of this. your going down wind to set up for your 180, 20 mph wind, if the canopy forward speed is 20 mph. your ground speed is 40. you are going to cover ALOT more ground than normal when setting up a 180. so your perception may be off in the fact that you started the turn too late to hit your mark so you dig deeper into the riser making more speed wich makes the riser harder to pull... or you could of already had alot of air speed like kaerock said. wich made the turn "pressure" allot harder.

i dont know about anyone else. but i dont like telling peaple to do 180's they are just too committing. start working on your 270's

[sunnydee123 0]

I was not sure which day I'd be around Sebastian but it would be whatever day all my pals are around. Guess we'll watch weather forecasts tomorrow and see.....but yeah - I really want the CD of pics from the Keys Boogie. We had TOO MUCH fun in Key West......

As for comp in a few weeks....I should start a new post on this - maybe I will but for now, Shimmel or Ian, any chance you would come down Friday morning? I have a pal flying into Orlando Friday around 11 who I'd like to help get to Sebastian.

Any ideas? I'll make some calls and PM's on THIS weekends plans

Dreams become reality, one choice at a time...

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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it is somthing very difucult to explain.

but think of this. your going down wind to set up for your 180, 20 mph wind, if the canopy forward speed is 20 mph. your ground speed is 40. you are going to cover ALOT more ground than normal when setting up a 180. so your perception may be off in the fact that you started the turn too late to hit your mark so you dig deeper into the riser making more speed wich makes the riser harder to pull... or you could of already had alot of air speed like kaerock said. wich made the turn "pressure" allot harder.

i dont know about anyone else. but i dont like telling peaple to do 180's they are just too committing. start working on your 270's

Maybe you're right about my covering a lot more ground and possibly trying to compensate... or, maybe I did make a sharp movement causing an increase in forward speed before I pulled the turn. I suppose I can't be certain at this point, I can only take in what might have been and be sure to apply that next time i'm flying in wind.

Yes, I hear ya on the 180s. I will probably start working on 270s soon. I do think 180s were a very important step, though, because I would have been extremely thrown off going from 90s to 270s as far as the sight picture is concerned. I'll start throwing 270s up high and see how they feel and how much alti I lose. I know that the setup is much easier in wind, but i'd have to throw right 270s to keep with the left hand pattern.... and now I feel right hand deficient as i've only worked on left 180s because of the req'd left hand pattern.

Thanks to all for their input, and i'll see you all at the competition soon!

Angela.

[raymod2 1]

I've experienced the same thing and I don't think it can be explained away as a misperception. Here's my theory:

Riser pressure is closely correlated to angle of attack. Any increase in angle of attack during the turn will start a chain of events that causes your canopy to plane out prematurely. What happens when you let up too much on a riser halfway through a turn? Riser pressure builds up and you find that you can't pull it down again. Maybe a gust of wind during windy conditions could simulate this phenomenon by momentarily increasing your angle of attack.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Maybe a gust of wind during windy conditions could simulate this phenomenon by momentarily increasing your angle of attack.

That I agree with. In gusty conditions I've had my riser pressure go very slack, followed by abruptly being yanked out of my hand.

Just another reason jumping in gusty conditions isn't a good idea.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

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I would have been extremely thrown off going from 90s to 270s

well maybee.. i couldnt tell you.. your taking the steps i did.. but i think it might be easyier to go from 90's to 270's just because of the options your left.


and for the left hand turns...

i dont think ive ever done a right hand turn... lol... and i got alot more jumps then you... im definatly right hand handicapped.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Mark,

Sorry dude, but I cannot agree that going straight from 90 degree turns to 270 degree turns is a good thing.

Doing 180 degree turns add's a level of complexity for sure, but doing 270's adds more so. It's a huge turn to expect someone to go to from doing 90's and not a good idea IMO.

To Angela...become proficient in doing your turns both left and right. Don't make big jumps in any of your turn degrees. If you feel concern, land in another area while you become proficient with turn degrees less than 270. I know you want to get more into competition and sometimes the winds are honking cross wind. That makes set up "interesting" when you're making a downwind run. It's good to be able to do your turn either way.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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To Angela...become proficient in doing your turns both left and right. ...It's good to be able to do your turn either way.

I am sure that is the case. But, I will hear shit for sure if I start doing right hand 180s or 90s in a left hand pattern. I will work with right riser turns up high and bring down a 270 when I feel comfortable with it. See ya soon! :)

-A

[ianmdrennan 2]

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But, I will hear shit for sure if I start doing right hand 180s or 90s in a left hand pattern.

Yep, but remember a right 270 in a left handed pattern is a right 90 followed by a right 180

90's themselves aren't good to be doing right's in left patterns, BUT a right 180 in a left handed pattern is no different to a right 270 in a left handed pattern. Both turn you into oncoming traffic.

Best advice....go play in an area where you can turn either way. Better to walk and learn
Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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To Angela...become proficient in doing your turns both left and right. ...It's good to be able to do your turn either way.

I am sure that is the case. But, I will hear shit for sure if I start doing right hand 180s or 90s in a left hand pattern. I will work with right riser turns up high and bring down a 270 when I feel comfortable with it. See ya soon! :)

-A

Actually, I can't imagine you getting any grief at all so long as you aren't throwing those turns right on the beer line in the main landing area. So long as you are not flying contrary to the standard pattern when there is traffic or if you simply land farther out you will be fine. FWIW, our DZ is pretty much left traffic, but all of us who do 270's do them to the right in that pattern. If someone pops up out of nowhere below us, we simply bail to a left 90. No biggie.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Good points, guys. If I make it out this weekend i'll let you know how I do with right turns, lol! I'm right handed, but feel so much more normal pulling left turns now.

-A