lowpullin1 0 #1 November 22, 2004 Having trouble chosing between a Stileto or a Vengence, i do jump camera so i need to take that in to consideration. But just hoping somebody has so experience with both canopies. thanks for info. "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #2 November 22, 2004 You should demo as many canopies as possible before deciding. That being said I would go for a Crossfire 2, in my opinion they are the best all around canopy with totally incredible opennings. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conquest150 0 #3 November 22, 2004 i think i would have to agree with talonsky on this one. demo all that you can. i bought a stiletto because i heard they were so good but now i wish i would have demoed cause i want a cf2 now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #4 November 22, 2004 Demo demo demo What do you want out of a canopy? What are your intentions? I think that will help people make suggestions. Me personally I probally won't ever buy a stilletto because they have short recovery arcs and my long term progression is towards crossbraced which dives and dives ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpullin1 0 #5 November 22, 2004 i do intend to progress to cross-braced canopies one day, really what i want is proformance and good openings. but that is what everyone wants. "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #6 November 22, 2004 You have a heatwave so the stilletto isn't going to be much different (I prefered my heatwave actually). The vengence isn't a great canopy for openings (lots of people have issues with them). I'd suggest you spend more time learning your current canopy personally. Any reason you don't want the heatwave anymore? Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #7 November 22, 2004 Personally I thought the Katana kicked the crap outta the XF2 (and there's no need to deal with crappy customer service when you go PD). Neither is a canopy for inexperienced pilots though.Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #8 November 22, 2004 I have never tried the Katana, however I switched to crossedbraced before they were out for demo. As far as customer service, I have always had incredible service from Icarus. It has been a year or so since I have talked to them but everytime I needed questions answered they were always there with an answer. Hell I think I called them about ten different times with questions leading up to my second canopy purchase. I have even got a direct response to an e-mailed question straight from Simon. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #9 November 22, 2004 QuotePersonally I thought the Katana kicked the crap outta the XF2 (and there's no need to deal with crappy customer service when you go PD). I wanted to demo one before I bought my XF2 after demoing a XF2, but the Katana wasn't release. PD reps kept giving me vague dates that it would come out, so I kept waiting aroudn and waiting around. I'm glad I quite waiting, since a 150 still hasn't been release (will it ever? I doubt it will be soon). I'm actually really disappointed in this regard with PD, I feel misled actually. Up to that point PD had been kick ass to deal with. However, after some hoopla initially, I've had nothing but great customer service with Icarus. They took care of me with demos I wanted, they took care of me while purchasing the canopy and have taken care of me when I've had questions after the sell. YMMV though, since I know others have had a rough time.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpullin1 0 #10 November 22, 2004 I actually lost my heatwave after a cutaway i had while filming a tandem. "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #11 November 22, 2004 QuoteI actually lost my heatwave after a cutaway i had while filming a tandem. Well that just sucks I've said in other threads that I recommend, and so do some of the factory guys, a Sabre2 progression down to where you're loading it around 1.8, then to a katana of the same size down to the size velo you'd want and then a velo. I realize that this is an expensive path, and not one many people like to take, but it's the one I recommend. So, because you have no loading or currency info available, I'd have to err on the side of caution and say maybe a sabre2 135 (maybe 120 depending on your loading?) would be something to demo and look at? You can swoop those bastards quite far You may find some people recommending the Nitro(n) but I've unfortunately never jumped one, but my wife did demo one before buying her katana 107 and she enjoyed her sabre2 135 over the nitro 120 she demo'ed for responsiveness. edit: Some people complained of shorter recovery arcs on the sabre2. 9x outta 10 it's cause the factory brake line settings are a little short. I don't know exactly why, but I'd guess it's because people weren't flaring them all the way (very long toggle stroke) and were thinking the canopy didn't flare properly when it was really their technique that was the issue. If you demo one, do the checks to ensure the brakes are correctly set up for front riser approaches. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #12 November 22, 2004 QuoteI wanted to demo one before I bought my XF2 after demoing a XF2, but the Katana wasn't release. PD reps kept giving me vague dates that it would come out, so I kept waiting aroudn and waiting around. I'm glad I quite waiting, since a 150 still hasn't been release (will it ever? I doubt it will be soon). I'm actually really disappointed in this regard with PD, I feel misled actually. I'll give you that for sure. PD haven't been too forthcoming with info about the larger Katana's other than "they're coming". What I DO KNOW is that when they release them (and they will) they will perform as expected of any PD product. We can hope they'll be out soon though Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #13 November 22, 2004 I got to put one jump on a katana 120 at rantoul this year. I found it to be a pretty cool canopy. It seemed to me to be rather similar to my Velo. It opened nice, but It lost a lot of altitude in a dive, just like a velo. You had to work it a little to get back froma really long spot, but not as much as a velo. I don't think the katana should ever be taken lightly, because it can get you killed just as fast as a CB canopy if not faster. If I ever felt I wasn't staying current enough for a CB canopy I wouldn't buy a katana, because I think it needs just as much attention while flying it as a CB canopy does. I hope this helps anyone out on their canopy selection. The Katana was a really cool canopy (from the one jump I put on it), but don't take it lightly. I also got to put a jump on a CF 2 129 the other weekend. That was a neat little canopy too. It didn't dive as much as the Velo, or the Katana, but I was able to keep it in a dive (low riser pressure) for a really long time. I felt it had a great glide, and it opened really slow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites headoverheels 333 #14 November 23, 2004 Try a Nitron. Same class as a Stiletto, good openings, more on-heading, slightly more bottom end flare, less oversteer on toggle turns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #15 November 23, 2004 QuoteHaving trouble chosing between a Stileto or a Vengence, i do jump camera so i need to take that in to consideration. But just hoping somebody has so experience with both canopies. thanks for info. You can buy a used Stiletto with fresh lines for $500. A used Vengance can be had for somewhat under $1000. Newer designs are harder to find used and have new street prices in the $1500 range. Using whatever metrics are important to them (recovery arc, control pressures, stall speed) most people prefer one of the newer designs. Considering your jump numbers and time in the sport, many of us would steer you towards a friendlier (on openings and landings) canopy like the Lotus, Omega, Sabre 2, Safire, Spectre, Pilot. All of the non-square canopies open softly to save your neck on camera jumps. The more agressive canopies are more sensitive to control input (intentional or unintentional) and require you to fly through the openings, with failure to do so leading to line twists and spinning malfunctions with the attendant risk of riser or line + helmet entanglement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lowpullin1 0 #16 November 23, 2004 no thanks, square canopies are not that fun. i have jumped a sabre1 150, sabre2 150, sabre 135, safire 135, sabre 120 and a heatwave 135. i loved my heatwave, a square canopy just isn't for me. my first few years in the sport i wasn't the active, no money, all my jumps have been over the last couple of years and i had one year in Iraq. "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #17 November 23, 2004 Just FYI, I don't believe any that Drew listed are square. All are tapered to some degree. "Elliptical" isn't everything ya know, in fact some ultra high performance canopies aren't tapered much at all Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lowpullin1 0 #18 November 23, 2004 yea, i know, tapered square same difference. i was just replying to his post where he said "Non-square". "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GravityGirl 0 #19 November 23, 2004 You have 350 jumps AND you fly camera. Can I offer you a third or fourth choice? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lowpullin1 0 #20 November 23, 2004 O, lord, here we go. "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lowpullin1 0 #21 November 23, 2004 ok enough this post has gotten way off topic. I was just wanting canopy advice. and yes that is what my profile says, 350 jumps and i jump camera, and i started jumping camera at about 150 jumps. "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GravityGirl 0 #22 November 23, 2004 QuoteO, lord, here we go. What, Oh Lord? Most camera flyers that I give gear consultations to don't opt for either of these choices. In my opinion as a gear consultant, you may want to consider other options. If that is not the case, I'll just mosie on out of this thread and let you go through the trial and error without the benefit of FREE advice. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lewmonst 0 #23 November 23, 2004 QuoteO, lord, here we go. Wow, that's rude. If you ask for advice on a public forum, you're going to get it, whether it's what you want to hear or not. If you don't want to hear the free advice from someone way more experienced in the sport who also owns a gear store and deals with skydivers in your situation all the time, your missing out, and you just shouln't post. You don't have to do what she advises, but you also don't have to be rude. No one will want to help you with this attitude. Like she said, you can just figure it out the hard way with trial and error. Is your profile correct? 331 jumps in 6 years? With an average of just 55 jumps/year, I'd recommend you listen to GravityGirl. That's my advice, coming from a camera flyer, who's jumped both those canopies. I know what third and fourth choices she has in mind for you... Maybe you can ask her to explain why. peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lowpullin1 0 #24 November 23, 2004 ok i guess i should have said that i am not buying a new canopy. i am looking for a used one. i know there are other canopies out there that are better for camera flyers and there are canopies with better performance, but the newer designs can't be found used and if you do find one it is too expensive for me. I would love a XF2 but not many out there for sale and they want too much for them. so basically there are alot of Stiletto out there at good prices and i did find a good deal on a Vengeance. so unless i found something else pretty quick that is the two i have to chose from. and i have already explained that my jump numbers and years in the sport do not reflect my currency. I am always up for a suggestion but remember i have to be able to find a used one. "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rsein 0 #25 November 23, 2004 I flew Vengeances (120, 107 and 97) for the longest time before going to Velos. I fly camera all the time and never had any problems with the Vengeance openings. The tendency with Vengeances is "Love them or Hate them" So, call PD and tell them to send you demos. You can jump them both before buying anything. HISPA #5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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headoverheels 333 #14 November 23, 2004 Try a Nitron. Same class as a Stiletto, good openings, more on-heading, slightly more bottom end flare, less oversteer on toggle turns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #15 November 23, 2004 QuoteHaving trouble chosing between a Stileto or a Vengence, i do jump camera so i need to take that in to consideration. But just hoping somebody has so experience with both canopies. thanks for info. You can buy a used Stiletto with fresh lines for $500. A used Vengance can be had for somewhat under $1000. Newer designs are harder to find used and have new street prices in the $1500 range. Using whatever metrics are important to them (recovery arc, control pressures, stall speed) most people prefer one of the newer designs. Considering your jump numbers and time in the sport, many of us would steer you towards a friendlier (on openings and landings) canopy like the Lotus, Omega, Sabre 2, Safire, Spectre, Pilot. All of the non-square canopies open softly to save your neck on camera jumps. The more agressive canopies are more sensitive to control input (intentional or unintentional) and require you to fly through the openings, with failure to do so leading to line twists and spinning malfunctions with the attendant risk of riser or line + helmet entanglement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpullin1 0 #16 November 23, 2004 no thanks, square canopies are not that fun. i have jumped a sabre1 150, sabre2 150, sabre 135, safire 135, sabre 120 and a heatwave 135. i loved my heatwave, a square canopy just isn't for me. my first few years in the sport i wasn't the active, no money, all my jumps have been over the last couple of years and i had one year in Iraq. "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #17 November 23, 2004 Just FYI, I don't believe any that Drew listed are square. All are tapered to some degree. "Elliptical" isn't everything ya know, in fact some ultra high performance canopies aren't tapered much at all Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpullin1 0 #18 November 23, 2004 yea, i know, tapered square same difference. i was just replying to his post where he said "Non-square". "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #19 November 23, 2004 You have 350 jumps AND you fly camera. Can I offer you a third or fourth choice? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpullin1 0 #20 November 23, 2004 O, lord, here we go. "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpullin1 0 #21 November 23, 2004 ok enough this post has gotten way off topic. I was just wanting canopy advice. and yes that is what my profile says, 350 jumps and i jump camera, and i started jumping camera at about 150 jumps. "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #22 November 23, 2004 QuoteO, lord, here we go. What, Oh Lord? Most camera flyers that I give gear consultations to don't opt for either of these choices. In my opinion as a gear consultant, you may want to consider other options. If that is not the case, I'll just mosie on out of this thread and let you go through the trial and error without the benefit of FREE advice. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #23 November 23, 2004 QuoteO, lord, here we go. Wow, that's rude. If you ask for advice on a public forum, you're going to get it, whether it's what you want to hear or not. If you don't want to hear the free advice from someone way more experienced in the sport who also owns a gear store and deals with skydivers in your situation all the time, your missing out, and you just shouln't post. You don't have to do what she advises, but you also don't have to be rude. No one will want to help you with this attitude. Like she said, you can just figure it out the hard way with trial and error. Is your profile correct? 331 jumps in 6 years? With an average of just 55 jumps/year, I'd recommend you listen to GravityGirl. That's my advice, coming from a camera flyer, who's jumped both those canopies. I know what third and fourth choices she has in mind for you... Maybe you can ask her to explain why. peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpullin1 0 #24 November 23, 2004 ok i guess i should have said that i am not buying a new canopy. i am looking for a used one. i know there are other canopies out there that are better for camera flyers and there are canopies with better performance, but the newer designs can't be found used and if you do find one it is too expensive for me. I would love a XF2 but not many out there for sale and they want too much for them. so basically there are alot of Stiletto out there at good prices and i did find a good deal on a Vengeance. so unless i found something else pretty quick that is the two i have to chose from. and i have already explained that my jump numbers and years in the sport do not reflect my currency. I am always up for a suggestion but remember i have to be able to find a used one. "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rsein 0 #25 November 23, 2004 I flew Vengeances (120, 107 and 97) for the longest time before going to Velos. I fly camera all the time and never had any problems with the Vengeance openings. The tendency with Vengeances is "Love them or Hate them" So, call PD and tell them to send you demos. You can jump them both before buying anything. HISPA #5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
