The worst HP swooping canopy

[Jonsmann 0]

Ok, here is the deal:
I don't like to swoop, I never have and never will. I like a straight in landing, and I like the canopy to stop rather than plane out. Also, I like a steep glide and the aggressiveness of an elliptical canopy, and add a short recovery arc to that.

My problem:
All new HP canopies are made with swooping in mind. It seems all companies are optimising for canopy qualities I don't like. After Aerodyne discontinued the Diablo there haven't been a canopy for someone like me.

Therefore I ask this; which elliptical canopy is the worst at swooping?

I really don't like to ask the negative question, but it seems like the best place to start with the way things are developing.

Jacques

[voodew1 0]

If you still want a Diablo I know of 2 -- 135s that have been collecting dust for years that could be had for a song Im sure -- not many jumps on them - he quit skydiving when the economy over here tanked

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Snowflake 0]

It must be a bitch trying to communicate in a second language sometimes. I think what you meant to say is your looking for an elliptical 9 cell with 7 cell charechteristics(sp). although you lost me on the steep glide part. Did you mean flat glide? Usually 7cell=steep glide, 9 cell=flat glide

I really can't make a suggestion on that, but have you tried jumping a Spectre?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Ok, here is the deal:
I don't like to swoop, I never have and never will. I like a straight in landing, and I like the canopy to stop rather than plane out.

My problem:
All new HP canopies are made with swooping in mind. It seems all companies are optimising for canopy qualities I don't like.

No elliptical parachute is going to come down with no plane-out and few nine-cell squares do (my TZ205 loaded under 1 pound/square foot didn't, the 295 Skymaster and 288 Manta I jumped as a student did). Some traditional seven cells at low wing loadings (I like .75 pounds/square foot) will sink straight in; some don't really do it from full-flight (Dagger 244, .7 pounds/square foot) but do stop quickly.

You can choose how fast it will be going by wing loading. Lower wing loadings will give you slower flight.

You can determine speed with your approach. Landing from braked flight will have less forward speed. This makes the flare more critical and is easier at low wing loadings, although it is doable (Samurai @ 1.7, sea level, half brakes).

You can choose how fast it's going when it stops flying through canopy selection. Canopies which swoop well produce more lift at low speeds and will be going slower at the end. The Stiletto worked a lot better than the Sabre; more modern designs like the Samurai and Crossfire work better than the Stiletto. Canopies which don't swoop well don't stop well - my Monarch 135 doesn't really shut-down.

And you can control the speed of your touchdown with technique - sink some and pop back up at the end. Modern ellipticals will set you down with a few steps even at higher (Samurai @ 1.9) wing loadings and extreme density altitudes (9-10,000 feet) with the right technique.

You can't change physics.

[Canuck 0]

Your post is kinda weird, I think the first thing you need to do is learn a little more about canopy flight and understand that how you fly a canopy is at least as much responsible for how it will perform as is the design of it.

From what I can understand though, I would suggest either a Stiletto or a Cobalt. Both would certainly be considered HP, both turn fast, have relatively short recovery arcs, and landed straight in without any speed augmenting manouver will not swoop too far.

Canuck

[Snowflake 0]

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Your post is kinda weird, I think the first thing you need to do is learn a little more about canopy flight and understand that how you fly a canopy is at least as much responsible for how it will perform as is the design of it.

Keep in mind that english might be this persons second language, so there might be ommisions or errors

[billvon 2,991]

>which elliptical canopy is the worst at swooping?

The Pilot is pretty bad. Short recovery arc and high front riser pressure, at least at moderate loadings.

[Jonsmann 0]

Actually, you understood me just fine, a steep glide!

I guess I am looking for a 7cell elliptical, but have come to terms with the fact that it does not exist anymore, so I can live with a 9 cell with 7 cell characteristics.

About the language, english isn't as much of a problem as using the "swooping language" which I am certainly not familiar with.

Jacques

[Ferry 0]

Strange, you want a canopy with a bad glide ratio and a bad flare. The way I see it all canopies have wing profile to built up lift to "fly". So I guess you like a old out of trim canopy or a round.

Ferry

[nicknitro71 0]

The Triathlon has a steeper glider. The Spectre and Omni acually have a pretty flat glide. I don't know about the Synergy.

Or you can buy a Prodigy and have some fun with terminal openings

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Jonsmann 0]

"bad glide ratio" yes if that is what you choose to call it! Most people jumping Velocities and Extremes would call it an aggressive trim.
"Bad flare" definitely not, when did I say that?

Jacques

[Jonsmann 0]

Triathlon, Spectre and Omni are "dogs", I am talking about an aggressive canopy!

Jacques

[nicknitro71 0]

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Triathlon, Spectre and Omni are "dogs",

Not if you load them 1.5+

Memento Audere Semper

903

[davelepka 4]

You are out of luck. You can't go fast up high, and than slow down for your landing. If you want to go fast, you have to do something with that speed when land. It's called swooping, and it's fun.

[Jonsmann 0]

Generally you are right.
However, my Diablo does a great job at killing that speed during the flare, not by planing out but by stopping.
And why can't you have both? It seems to me the only reason why canopies of today are swoopy is because most people want them that way.

Jacques

[davelepka 4]

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And why can't you have both?

You want a canopy to go fast, fine. When it comes time to stop that canopy, that energy has to go somewhere. In the absence of mechanical brakes (disc or drum brakes, grappling hook, etc.), your canopy uses aerodynamic drag to slow down. The amount of drag available is not sufficient to stop the canopy quickly, so it slows it gradually, as you plane out along the ground. Thats why.

[Ferry 0]

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"Bad flare" definitely not, when did I say that?

If a canopy doesn't plane out I see it as bad flare, and no you did not say that.
I have jumped a BT pro, from PdF. That might be something you like. Eliptical, very fast turning. Good openings and short toggle range, bad swooping canopy. Only thing is that the glide angle is not that steep.

(I still have mine...)

Ferry

[Jonsmann 0]

You generallize the swoopy canopy qualities and assume it is a law of nature, it is not!
It all comes down to the development of the lift to drag ratio during the flare.
A typical swoopy canopy has a high lift to drag ratio during the flare. It has been optimised for this property. It doesn't have to be that way. The canopy I am looking for has a lower L/D ratio than the typical swoopy canopy, not because the lift is lower but because the drag is higher (during the flare that is).

Jacques

[davelepka 4]

You're just not right. I'm sorry.

If you want to go fast, that fast has to go somewhere when you want to touch down.

The speed turns into lift. Try to do it too quickly, and you will go back up. Do it slowly, and you will plane out.

Even if there was a way to stop a canopy quickly, what's going to stop you? Your weight will continue forward, and if the canopy stops, you will swing forward and up in an arc at the end of your lines. How would you handle that? In truth this is what happens when you pop up, as your canopy slows, you come forward and helps to pitch the wing up, where your excess speed comes in and up you go.

What is there not to like about swooping? Or even just a 30 ft plane out after a straight in landing?

I pray you don't say anything about saftey, becasue eliptical anything isn't the safest route, regardless of your intentions.

[Jonsmann 0]

I think it is pointless to keep arguing this, lets just agree on disagreeing.

Jacques

[skybytch 273]

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What is there not to like about swooping?

That going horizontally at a high rate of speed with breakable body parts inches from the ground thing. It doesn't appeal to every skydiver.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Triathlon, Spectre and Omni are "dogs", I am talking about an aggressive canopy!

Jacques

Might I recommend you take this statement back. It's not the canopy, it's the pilot. I can shoot accuracy approaches on my Spectre 150 (it's mainly only used in my wingsuit rig) or I can swoop the shit out of it. Of course you're not going to see me competing on the CPC with it, but it is a very verstile canopy.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Jonsmann 0]

I have jumped both Spectres and Triathlons, in fact I have most of my jumps on Triathlons. They are good canopies and they are very versatile. However, they are dogs compared to my Diablo. Have you ever jumped a Diablo?

"It's not the canopy, it's the pilot" this is just a silly black/white comment. For most skydivers the flight performance is the combination of the pilots skill and the characteristics of the canopy. For competitive swoopers I am sure it is largely the pilot skills that determine performance, but for the rest of us it is a combination.

Jacques

[AggieDave 6]

Ok, so what I can tell from watching this thread is that what you like for performance is the rate of turn, how quick does the canopy snap around, right?

Diablos flat out get a move on if you hammer a toggle, especially when compared to something like the triathalon.

Now, what can you find currently made that has the ability to get cranking like that but can still land without a plane out, even a minor one, like an old crapped out F111 canopy? None that I know of.

Do you really want a 7-cell? The only think I can recommend is to demo everything you can get your hands on that is within your skill level and see what you find that you like.

No matter what anyone else says about how great a canopy is or how another canopy sucks, if you like flying it or don't like flying it is what matters for you.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Jonsmann 0]

Thanks Dave that is a good and useful reply.

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Ok, so what I can tell from watching this thread is that what you like for performance is the rate of turn, how quick does the canopy snap around, right?

That is a big part of it yes.

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Now, what can you find currently made that has the ability to get cranking like that but can still land without a plane out, even a minor one, like an old crapped out F111 canopy? None that I know of.

I think you are right, I just wanted to get some pointer in the right direction. So far the Stiletto (too flat a glide) and the Vision (haven't jumped one yet) has been suggested. I am a little surprised nobody have suggested the Nitro. Any comments on the Nitro with this thread in mind?

Jacques