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AndyMan 7
I spent a good part of last week with Brian Germain in a Canopy seminar.
I had the upper level of experience in the class, with over 700 jumps. My wife had the low end, with 26. The demographics of the class were representative between the two extremes. There were 4 people with less than a hundred jumps.
We all went to the same seminar, we all learned the same things, and we all took away a LOT of new knowledge about how to fly a high performance wing.
We covered everything from different types of toggle turns to harness input, front and rear riser manuevers, even high speed stalls.
At the end of the day, even the 35 jump newbies were practicing harness turns and rehearsing how to bail from a turn done too low.
Wtihtout a doubt, we start teaching how to swoop in our first jump courses when we start teaching "the pattern". That instruction should continue until the jumper gives up the sport.
_Am
I had the upper level of experience in the class, with over 700 jumps. My wife had the low end, with 26. The demographics of the class were representative between the two extremes. There were 4 people with less than a hundred jumps.
We all went to the same seminar, we all learned the same things, and we all took away a LOT of new knowledge about how to fly a high performance wing.
We covered everything from different types of toggle turns to harness input, front and rear riser manuevers, even high speed stalls.
At the end of the day, even the 35 jump newbies were practicing harness turns and rehearsing how to bail from a turn done too low.
Wtihtout a doubt, we start teaching how to swoop in our first jump courses when we start teaching "the pattern". That instruction should continue until the jumper gives up the sport.
_Am
__
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
superstu 0
out of those you listed the only one i dissagree with is number 2, i just don't think it's necessary but i do think it would help get the point across.
out of those listed i think number 5 is the best thing a 'student' of swooping could have.
good points
out of those listed i think number 5 is the best thing a 'student' of swooping could have.
good points
Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down
Bartje 0
What is the definition for a swoop?
Teach them young is good but teach them what, make a good landing and a turf from 15ft or is a swoop realy the big long surf turf and carving and ....
For me swooping is: get to the gate without taking risk, a controled landing with a big horizontal distance.
For other it is a nice carve during the horizontal distance.
If swooping is making a controled landing true the entrancegate and do a few yards you can not start soon enough.
When swooping is carving, speed, distance and ... making agrisuve turns to gain speed before the landing then you need more than 300 jumps (on the same canopy).
A FreeFly Gypsy
Teach them young is good but teach them what, make a good landing and a turf from 15ft or is a swoop realy the big long surf turf and carving and ....
For me swooping is: get to the gate without taking risk, a controled landing with a big horizontal distance.
For other it is a nice carve during the horizontal distance.
If swooping is making a controled landing true the entrancegate and do a few yards you can not start soon enough.
When swooping is carving, speed, distance and ... making agrisuve turns to gain speed before the landing then you need more than 300 jumps (on the same canopy).
A FreeFly Gypsy
I feel kinda obligated to reply to this post. I have 108 jumps, and i have begun learning the fundementals on swooping since jump 45.
Before I go further in my opinion on this, i'll define a swoop to myself - a controlled accelration of a canopy that will have a three stage affect consiting of a dive, a recovery, and a surf. Turning approach or not, swoops can be completed.
I have been learning the ins and outs of double front risers since jump 45, and now at jump 108 i finally am beginning to understand site picture, input, release, and many other important things that pretain to turning approches down the road. I have spent about 63 skydives learning my canopy on landing.. Now some at my local DZ believe its to early for me to doing this, but my opinion holds to the facts of wingloadings.. why would i learn at 200 to 400 jumps with a 1.3 to 1.4 wingloading, and have a much harder time learning the important points and basics, then at jump 45 to 150 under a slower, docile canopy that can be flown in a high performance fascion.
The simple problem with low jump number individuals and swooping lies in two concepts, one education. Even i was guilty at a low jump number saying "I WANNA DO A 270!!" but after getting a good smack and some helpful advice, i quickly went to learning everything i could on canopy dynamics and started to progress down the path of approches with double front risers. The seocnd problem lies with in the wing loadings that some pilots learn under. At my DZ i am the only B lisence skydiver doing a 1:1 loading. Others are already at 40 jumps 1.3, and so on.. flying smaller canopies. A small, fast and fun as it maybe causes a huge increase in potential of error. Recovery arcs are longer, inputs are more sensitive, and everything happens faster.
Due to this speed increase, its important for those intrested in swooping and canopy control progress in low jump numbers with a low wingloading, while also being taught the essence of brake turns, flat turns, and other evasive manuvers that could save their lives if they find them selves low.
This is merely an opinion, but after seeing some expressions at the DZ over my doule front riser approches i was just a little bugged because i believe learning at a low wingloading is exponetianlly safer than at a high wingloading. I'm just flying every little bit of potential energy out of my canopy.
Just an opinion
-dave
Before I go further in my opinion on this, i'll define a swoop to myself - a controlled accelration of a canopy that will have a three stage affect consiting of a dive, a recovery, and a surf. Turning approach or not, swoops can be completed.
I have been learning the ins and outs of double front risers since jump 45, and now at jump 108 i finally am beginning to understand site picture, input, release, and many other important things that pretain to turning approches down the road. I have spent about 63 skydives learning my canopy on landing.. Now some at my local DZ believe its to early for me to doing this, but my opinion holds to the facts of wingloadings.. why would i learn at 200 to 400 jumps with a 1.3 to 1.4 wingloading, and have a much harder time learning the important points and basics, then at jump 45 to 150 under a slower, docile canopy that can be flown in a high performance fascion.
The simple problem with low jump number individuals and swooping lies in two concepts, one education. Even i was guilty at a low jump number saying "I WANNA DO A 270!!" but after getting a good smack and some helpful advice, i quickly went to learning everything i could on canopy dynamics and started to progress down the path of approches with double front risers. The seocnd problem lies with in the wing loadings that some pilots learn under. At my DZ i am the only B lisence skydiver doing a 1:1 loading. Others are already at 40 jumps 1.3, and so on.. flying smaller canopies. A small, fast and fun as it maybe causes a huge increase in potential of error. Recovery arcs are longer, inputs are more sensitive, and everything happens faster.
Due to this speed increase, its important for those intrested in swooping and canopy control progress in low jump numbers with a low wingloading, while also being taught the essence of brake turns, flat turns, and other evasive manuvers that could save their lives if they find them selves low.
This is merely an opinion, but after seeing some expressions at the DZ over my doule front riser approches i was just a little bugged because i believe learning at a low wingloading is exponetianlly safer than at a high wingloading. I'm just flying every little bit of potential energy out of my canopy.
Just an opinion
-dave
I don't know if there really is an answer. some people learn faster than others. I, myself have taken the slow route. I am now getting coaching on a regular basis from dave and hans up at the Farm. I started with a 190 then a 170 and now i am on a sabre2 150. I really do believe the slower you go the better you become. It seems like its a race to get to the smallest canopy. What a lot of young jumpers don't realize is its the fun is getting there. Learning is so much fun. Once you believe you've mastered and learned your canopy then downsize. Some guy once made a comment " well, i ride fast bikes this is no problem" Well, yeah. You can let off the throttle and it will slow down. On canopies, land off the dropzone, downwind with obstacles....LEARN your canopy. just my 2 cents
http://www.skydivethefarm.com
do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?
do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?
QuoteSome guy once made a comment " well, i ride fast bikes this is no problem" Well, yeah. You can let off the throttle and it will slow down.
Funny, I hear the same thing from a jumper regularly. Funny thing is if I rode a bike like he flies his canopy I'd be a grease streak on the road in a heartbeat. If he offered me advice on riding a bike though, I'd sure listen. Wonder why it doesn't work the other way around.
Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team
You know ian. Sometimes its better to let the Darwin theory to kick in. Some people will not listen no matter what. You try and help these people but really, all they are looking for is 1 approval. I prefer the slow route..hehehe
http://www.skydivethefarm.com
do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?
do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?
Bartje 0
"Swoopen is geen kunst, blijven swoopen, da's pas Kunst"
Translation:"Swooping is not an art, continuing swooping, thats art"
Some people are just faster then others but everybody who's swooping did has his/her crash/bad landing.
What is the answer? Are we talking about canopycontrol or swooping.
A good swoop is the result from a good canopy controled flight.
So Learn to fly your canopy before you swoop, the other way is not the good way in my opinion.
A FreeFly Gypsy
Translation:"Swooping is not an art, continuing swooping, thats art"
Some people are just faster then others but everybody who's swooping did has his/her crash/bad landing.
What is the answer? Are we talking about canopycontrol or swooping.
A good swoop is the result from a good canopy controled flight.
So Learn to fly your canopy before you swoop, the other way is not the good way in my opinion.
A FreeFly Gypsy
DrewGPM 0
I don't think it's a jump number thing. It's a skills thing. Once you have knowledge and the skills, then go ahead and start swooping.
first, before anybody swoops on landing they should practice the techniques at a high altitude first. At least you'll get a feel for the speed and the response of the inputs you give the canopy.
Second, A basic canopy course, like the one Brian Germain just did at Skydive chicago, should be attended by everyone. Too many non-swoopers are killing themselves on low turns. This course will help keep you becoming the subject of post in th Incident Forum.
I think a course like that should be a REQUIRED step for anyone who wants to start swooping. As Andyman stated, after 700 jumps, he learned a ton in this course. He's been swooping for a while! So any 150 jump wonders who think they are ready to swoop, give Brian Germain a call before you do it.
There will be number of people who attend a course like that realize they are not ready to swoop. It will give them a list of skills to master BEFORE they consider swooping.
After that, i'd be OK with someone starting to swoop, under the direction of a coach. It would be better if he/she attending a high performance landing course. Not sure how available those are, so i'm reluctant to make them a requirement.
As long you've been trained and educated, I say go ahead. But have someone tape your first few landings. Watch them, learn from them...and DO NOT SEND YOUR CRASH LANDINGS VIDEOS TO "REAL-TV" OR ANY OTHER "YOU GOTTA SEE THIS" TYPE SHOW! We don't need that kind of exposure!
first, before anybody swoops on landing they should practice the techniques at a high altitude first. At least you'll get a feel for the speed and the response of the inputs you give the canopy.
Second, A basic canopy course, like the one Brian Germain just did at Skydive chicago, should be attended by everyone. Too many non-swoopers are killing themselves on low turns. This course will help keep you becoming the subject of post in th Incident Forum.
I think a course like that should be a REQUIRED step for anyone who wants to start swooping. As Andyman stated, after 700 jumps, he learned a ton in this course. He's been swooping for a while! So any 150 jump wonders who think they are ready to swoop, give Brian Germain a call before you do it.
There will be number of people who attend a course like that realize they are not ready to swoop. It will give them a list of skills to master BEFORE they consider swooping.
After that, i'd be OK with someone starting to swoop, under the direction of a coach. It would be better if he/she attending a high performance landing course. Not sure how available those are, so i'm reluctant to make them a requirement.
As long you've been trained and educated, I say go ahead. But have someone tape your first few landings. Watch them, learn from them...and DO NOT SEND YOUR CRASH LANDINGS VIDEOS TO "REAL-TV" OR ANY OTHER "YOU GOTTA SEE THIS" TYPE SHOW! We don't need that kind of exposure!
alan 1
QuoteI firmly believe people should start learning the fundementals of swooping on their first skydive.
Could not agree more. And it goes beyond just the pattern. FJC they learn BASICS like airspeed vs groundspeed, use of breaks, what a stall looks like, etc., etc.. It goes on and on. The USPA ISP has steps of canopy control in it from the first jump. Learning the fundamentlas of swooping is not the same as learning swooping. Each jumper can decide what to do with the fundamentals after they have them. If they want to go to the next level and learn swooping, then they have the basic fundamentals and can learn in a better prepared environment. If they don't want to learn to swoop, more power to them, they still have the basic fundamentals that will make them a better and safer canopy pilot in general.
There are too many canopy "pilots" out there with hundreds of jumps that don't have a clue as to how and why the canopy flies and responds to various inputs the way it does.
alan
I agree with dave on this that it should be stressed from the first jump that a clean landing pattern is completely necessary for whatever type of landing you are doing.
It was also stated on here but I'll say it again. When it comes to swooping the first thing every jumper needs to learn is slow flight of the canopy. Before anyone even learns the first thing about how to swoop, they should learn how not to swoop, ie how to get out of a swoop. It all comes back to slow flight.
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
It was also stated on here but I'll say it again. When it comes to swooping the first thing every jumper needs to learn is slow flight of the canopy. Before anyone even learns the first thing about how to swoop, they should learn how not to swoop, ie how to get out of a swoop. It all comes back to slow flight.
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
LilZilla 2
I guess that it really depends upon the jumper himself. If the jumper is irresponsible and dangerous under canopy or can't control himself, then the jumper obviously doesn't belong in the swooping crowd. Although, if you have a jumper who is very comfortable and knows a little about how a canopy will perform to low alt. inputs, then I believe it is all good. I also believe that like anything else, you need to take it slow and not rush into it. Starting off with slow 90 degree turns then working your way up to quicker 90s, then so on. Its all about your comfort level as well as knowledge of that canopy's performance.
Quoteif you have a jumper who is very comfortable and knows a little about how a canopy will perform to low alt. inputs,
Most pilots know a little. If you want to do HP stuff it is your responsibility to know as much as you can. Don't get me wrong we're all always learning, but you have to make a lot more than just a little effort. It's also worth noting that jumpers who do HP stuff, ready or not, feel comfortable under their wing. Often that comfort is misplaced.
QuoteStarting off with slow 90 degree turns
I would disagree with this. Start off with what Johnny talked about. Then going through all the drills up high, numerous times, then starting with double fronts and moving from there.
Johnny hit the nail on the head though. If you can do the stuff well and safe(er), slow, then you'll not do it well and safe(er) fast.
Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team
QuoteStarting off with slow 90 degree turns then working your way up to quicker 90s, then so on. Its all about your comfort level as well as knowledge of that canopy's performance.
How about symetric front risers in various degrees, 15,30,45,60,75, and then 90?
A 90 degree (carving or hard) still generates a lot more speed than a symetric front riser approach - about 50 MPH for a conservative carving 90 under a Stiletto at 1.6-1.7 pounds/square foot. Done sufficiently low it's also no more recoverable than a 180 or 270.
QuoteHow about symetric front risers in various degrees, 15,30,45,60,75, and then 90?
How does a pilot do that? Do you mean "steer" with the risers? or Come X degrees of the windline, turn those X degrees, and then apply Double Fronts?
That would obviously have a much slower affect then a true 90 degree carved turn, but im not sure if thats what you mean.
Thanks
-dave
If someone approached me on the DZ today and asked "am I ready to swoop?", I'd list them my criteria:
1) You show a high level of competency in basic canopy flight.
2) You have witnessed someone else femur in.
3) You fully grasp the severity of a bad swoop (relates to criteria #2)
4) You have a mentor/coach that is willing to teach you.
5) You are willing to listen
6) You are willing to abort swoops when the set up isnt "perfect".
and the most important criteria:
7) You have medical insurance, so the rest of us don't have to keep paying $20 for an asprin at the hospital so they can afford to off set the non-collection of funds they spend on you if you happen to accidentally hook yourself.
--
My other ride is a RESERVE.
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