Bad landings and the "I was lucky" advice.

[LawnDart21 0]

There have been a lot of recent landing injuries with the same premise: Jumper on highly loaded canopy that had been "warned" by others that they were exceeding their ability, and then they hook themselves in. With that said:

What is becoming an almost automatic response to these threads it seems is other jumpers saying:

"I was the same way you were when I was at your experience level, I wouldnt listen either, but I was lucky though and lived through it. It was stupid, but I was lucky."

Translated: "Do as I say, not as I did."

What message does that send to the next person about to hook themselves in? The "I got lucky" poster didnt listen and lived, so why should the next one slow down.

I look back over my canopy progression, and I know that appropriate coaching, patience and the willingness to listen to others got me through the swoop gate safely, not being "lucky".

As tired as I am at reading the same hook turn incidents over and over, I'm also getting tired of the "I was just like you but I was lucky" responses. It gives the "next potential crater" no cause for slowing down, in fact it does the opposite, it clearly illustrates that people can reject constructive advice and still survive intact. Is that really the message we want to be sending?

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[superstu 0]

"you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make'm drink." is the old saying. people can be taught and given all the knowledge in the wrorld but it's only when they are completely honest with themselves will they start to learn faster and "drink" from the water.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[kelpdiver 2]

It definitely distorts the message. For a person that is shopping for advice anyway, it allows them to convince himself that the advice/BSR/whatever is unnecessary nannyism. Or just to notice the hypocrisy. 'I see. It was ok for you to take these unwise risks, but it's not ok for me.'

(and to save unnecessary questions, my canopy and reserve aren't remotely loaded)

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Ultimately it comes down to personal choice. One ultimately must choose one's own risk tolerance based on your realistic experience and skill level. But education is the key. Why do this sport by trial and error? It's too dangerous to risk making stupid mistakes that can be avoided through education. Knowing what you are doing up there, being a pro-active skydiver and not just letting shit happen by chance. Over confidence is bad, but confidence is good in this sport. And confidence comes from knowing what you're doing because you haven't done this sport by trial and error. You've listened to the people who know more that you do.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

"I was the same way you were when I was at your experience level, I wouldnt listen either, but I was lucky though and lived through it. It was stupid, but I was lucky."

Translated: "Do as I say, not as I did."

I'm that guy and I want to tell you that you translated it wrong.

Basically the point I was making is NOT do as I say, not as I did, just that looking back I wish I would have listened. I had a couple of really really close calls that I made through only on sheer luck and this isn't a sport to rely on luck.

There is something to be said from earned experience and trying to pass along that experience without the new person having to earn it as well, since the earning process may not be so favorable. The earning the experience process is read about every single week in the incidents forum.


I view it the same way as someone who first learned "bannana turns" while learning RW, then later learned how to do centerpoint turns with their arms and leg layovers. If someone comes to them with a question should they teach them bannana turns or the method that's better that took them a long time to learn but is easy to teach?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[LuvToFly 0]

Quote

Quote

"I was the same way you were when I was at your experience level, I wouldnt listen either, but I was lucky though and lived through it. It was stupid, but I was lucky."

Translated: "Do as I say, not as I did."

I'm that guy and I want to tell you that you translated it wrong.

Basically the point I was making is NOT do as I say, not as I did, just that looking back I wish I would have listened. I had a couple of really really close calls that I made through only on sheer luck and this isn't a sport to rely on luck.

There is something to be said from earned experience and trying to pass along that experience without the new person having to earn it as well, since the earning process may not be so favorable. The earning the experience process is read about every single week in the incidents forum.


I view it the same way as someone who first learned "bannana turns" while learning RW, then later learned how to do centerpoint turns with their arms and leg layovers. If someone comes to them with a question should they teach them bannana turns or the method that's better that took them a long time to learn but is easy to teach?

It's a difficult call -

On one hand, you want to be able to warn folks about what you have the knowledge now to either avoid or overcome -

The problem remains though that for some the message may be, "hey, if Dave can get away with it - with little to no experience early in his career, then why can't I?" In other words, many people think with perhaps better training or equipment available today (or just testosterone) they can avoid what you got lucky with as well -

When newer jumpers see the incredible feats that very experienced jumpers can do, and hear the loud buzzing of fabric as somone hooks down before leveling out, they want to have that experience as well. Combine that with the fact that youth is not patient, and you have a recipe for disaster.

I think the point well taken by your posts on this subject is the fact that a person may think they can get away with it, or downsize radically or before their experience level, but it is that very belief, for whatever the reasons above, that can kill or mame.

In actuality, if anyone who ever attempted something in the sport prior to being ready to handle it was not lucky and got hurt or killed some that think they can get away with it may not try. But people do get lucky - although at the time, many people believe it was their "skill" that got them by - Only when you have really come into a greater knowledge and understanding of the sport do you realize what luck and skill really mean, and the differences between them along with the inherent dangers of confusing the two.

As someone who is pretty conservative, I can also get frustrated with the concept of folks setting what seems like a bad example as experienced people go in from low turns. But I still think there is little choice but to try to warn folks the best you can, and I appreciate your efforts to continue to do so -

Thanks -

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[LawnDart21 0]

Sent PM.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[speedy 0]

Quote

Sent PM.

Why does everyone else need to know that you sent a PM?

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[LawnDart21 0]

Good point, my internet communication protocols need some refreshing. Wont happen again. Sorry for waisting your bandwidth..........

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[bobsled92 0]

THings I've learned from other's mistakes:
Reserve is larger than MAIN (no need for more excitement after the silver handle is pulled/CYPRES)
Got coaching rather than luck.
and I KNOW enough to know that......
"I don't know >enough< " (keep learning)

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[Erroll 80]

Golfing great Gary Player used to say : "The more I practise, the luckier I get."

[chutem 0]

I just want to let you guys know that not all of this falls on "deaf ears" (no offence to the hearing impaired). I'm very fond of walking, and would like to continue to be able to do so for a very long time. Last year when I started jumping I planned to downsize relatively quickly, after reading all the posts here I plan on takeing it slow. The main point of my post is- Thank You DZ.com and Experienced Jumpers- I'm sure there are plenty of others who feel the same way.
Thanks Again,
James

[GQ_jumper 4]

I'm sure there are plenty of others who feel the same way.
***

it changed my mind too, well that and the fact that i'd rather spend money on jumps than a new canopy every 100.

a good point was brought up in this post though, my motivation for wanting to downsize quickly before i saw the light were the super swoopers i'd meet that would brag about how quick they went down. not the best impression to make. just my .02 though

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[listo 0]

we tell people of our past "nightmares" because we don't want anyone else to have to lay in a hospital bed. Not because we are wanting to show them that you can bend the rules and get away with it.

If someone is going to be hard headed, their butt better be tough. This is why we share our experiences and offer advice as to how someone should learn.

You can't hold someone's hand during a hook turn, but you can take them off to the side and tell them that they aren't ready or that they need to get some coaching or what ever might be needed to help them learn.

Aside from grounding someone, there is nothing you can do to prevent someone from doing what ever it is that they intend on doing anyway. Our sport regulates itself in many ways. If it comes down to Darwinism, then..... so be it.

I am not saying that people should just go out and do what ever it is that they want. Coaching is a really neccessary part of learning. From what I have seen, most people that are coaching up and coming swoopers have made those "critical" mistakes and they know how to learn from those mistakes and they only want to help others who don't know about them, to KNOW about them without having to experience them.

If you don't know what you are doing or THINK that you know what you are doing, you more than likely need to get professional coaching if you want to stay healthy

Live today as tomorrow may not come