Beverly 1 #1 July 4, 2005 Ok, just read about the accident in Germany with a girl weighting up for the swoop qualifing. I wear weights to jump with my 4 way team and some students and have just started playing with a 105 canopy. My issue is that an exit weight of 157.3lbs puts me on a wingloading of 1.498. In the future, I want to be competing against the boys in this country and need to know what the process should be with regards to weights and swooping. What should come first, same weights and smaller canopy? More weights and the same canopy? In the next few months, I will be getting my own (Probably sub hundred) canopy for this. Should I be preventing my team mates from loosing weight so I can practice? BTW, I am a really conservative canopy pilot, doing 40 or so jumps a month. Taking this slow......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #2 July 4, 2005 QuoteWhat should come first, same weights and smaller canopy? More weights and the same canopy? BTW, I am a really conservative canopy pilot, doing 40 or so jumps a month. Taking this slow...... How about same weights, same canopy, different piloting techniques. You have more skydives than I have, but most of my skydives have been geared towards high performance canopy control. If you want to be a swooper, then cool ... we need more female swoopers and you're a great candidate to get into it. But you need to start from scratch just as if you were a 100 jump wonder. If you're not already doing this, then you need to dedicate some jumps to pulling high and getting to know your canopy at your wing loading. Then progress to double front swoops, 90s, 180s and so forth. Also seek coaching from qualified canopy control coaches. Some people are better swoopers than others, but there are no short cuts to swooping. It takes hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of jumps on each canopy (and/or landing technique) and I personally believe that currency is a huge factor as well. Good luck!!! Swooping rocks, but it's very unforgiving of the errors we all make. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beverly 1 #3 July 4, 2005 Thanks for this. Believe me I am taking this real slow, and have not done a fantastic swoop I can call competition level as yet. Still tend to abort rather than commit. Anyway, I am under coaching and he is very critical. Still on straight approaches, started to play with a bit of riser input this weekend. I will be looking at about 450 jumps a year, hopefully with the same/similar canopy. Will be using the same weights and canopy for a good couple of months still. Just don't want to get into a situation where you are required to weigh up inexpectantly and then crash. The German girl put on 14 kg. That is a quarter of my body weight. These things make a huge difference. I think true friendship is under-rated Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #4 July 4, 2005 QuoteJust don't want to get into a situation where you are required to weigh up inexpectantly and then crash. The German girl put on 14 kg. No one is required to add weights. I have no idea why Nadine added so much weight for the qualifiying jump. She could have qualified with zero kg's. I am no expert swooper but as far as I know there are 2 reasons why swoopers add weights. 1. A larger canopy will fly further than a smaller canopy when both have the same wing loading. 2. A higher wing loading will generate more speed but will not swoop as far. So more weight for speed rounds, less weight for distance rounds. The pilot is by far the most important factor in the equation. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rain-man 0 #5 July 4, 2005 You can take this however you like (with a pinch of salt because its coming from Mary Poppins) and you have more jumps than me.... Quote In the future, I want to be competing against the boys in this country and need to know what the process should be with regards to weights and swooping.Quote Its really a complex issue but IMHO usage of weights for swooping is best left for the big boys and by that i mean those who have been doing it for a while. Im not saying this from the benefits point of view but from the risk point of view. In a nut-shell if you are getting into swooping, weights are not necessary. It will be more about just being able to handle your canopy safely as is, your approach, your set up, and to hit the gates safely (you will be suprised how many people are poor at this). Quote In the next few months, I will be getting my own (Probably sub hundred) canopy for this. Should I be preventing my team mates from loosing weight so I can practice? Quote Again IMHO, i belive that your 4 way team + student work is seperate from what you want to achieve (serious swooping as you put it). Were you to think of using weights for swooping, you could find that the optimum level you decide to use is different from that required for your team jumps and students. As your team-mates i wouldnt be happy to be made to change our already working set-up for one person. In this case it probably needs to be stressed that if you are going to be serious about swooping.....dedicate jumps solely for that purpose. Pull high and figure out your canopy and its behaviour etc while you are in your full swoop configuration. You learn more that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #6 July 5, 2005 you look like your a cutie., so i dont think you will have a problem finding help... a very good way to learn is to go out and watch, learn a few things then put yourself in a comp. dont expect to win. that may take a year or two, depending on the comps. get a group of peeps that are compedetive and also want to learn this and start going up against them. then share what you have learned with them and have them do the same. you have the jump numbers "and currency" to probably know when your pushing yourself to far. it really is a trial and error type thing to learn, but being able to watch, and being able to put yourself in the same situation will help you grow and learn also. then when you get a little better, start talkin shit to peeps!... telling them you can beat them, it will piss them off. and when it does they will train harder. then watch what they learn and take it in, and get jelouse, because you want to be better.... then train ... train... train.... train hard..... because you talked so much shit it is then time to deliver! ok, im rambleing.... go at your own pace, travel to comps and watch. ask questions, and build your base... then start fine tuning, make sure you have a drive and a love for it. because it can take a toll on you... the ones who think they are the best then goto comps. and not do so well then quit,.... will never learn. your not going to be the best, but you WILL get better! have fun. and be safe, add a few pounds and get it down before moving on... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #7 July 5, 2005 First of all, great post QuoteIts really a complex issue but IMHO usage of weights for swooping is best left for the big boys and by that i mean those who have been doing it for a while. Im not saying this from the benefits point of view but from the risk point of view. In a nut-shell if you are getting into swooping, weights are not necessary. It will be more about just being able to handle your canopy safely as is, your approach, your set up, and to hit the gates safely (you will be suprised how many people are poor at this). I agree. No matter your gender, you should be able to swoop your canopy well for it's given type and loading BEFORE adding any additional complexities such as weight. For example, a Katana 107 loaded at 1.2 is quite capable of a 200 ft + swoop. QuoteIn this case it probably needs to be stressed that if you are going to be serious about swooping.....dedicate jumps solely for that purpose. Pull high and figure out your canopy and its behaviour etc while you are in your full swoop configuration. You learn more that way. Amen. Swooping is NOT something you can do half ass. Either put a shitload of time and effort into it, or don't do it at all IMO. So Bev, if you're serious about this (and I think that's a great thing), then you're going to have to dedicate a significant amount of time to it to do it well. While you can always practice canopy stuff on 'regular' skydives, you should dedicate jumps that are for nothing else other than canopy flight. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mindway69 0 #8 July 5, 2005 I am responding to this because I am in a similar situation to you. I agree that your teammates should not have to change all of their wing loadings for what you are looking to learn with swooping. I don't think you should be thinking about changing what you have to learn to swoop. IMHO, I would stay with what you have (and I would not recommend going from a 135sf canopy directly to a sub-100sf canopy, even if you had been doing really good competition swoops) and learning with that first. I have taken an EXTREMELY conservative approach to learning. I spent hundreds of dives working on double fronts on my Sabre2 135 before progressing to a different canopy. Then, I spent at least 100 dives getting back to the point of good double fronts and consistency before thinking about moving to 90s. I have spent about 200 jumps working on 90s, and last weekend I entered my 1st competition for learning purposes. Many people have moved faster than I have. Many people think that by learning slowly it will give slower results. Last weekend is the "proof in the pudding." I have never practiced on gates, never measured my swoops, and I knew going into it that I was loading 1.35 compared to 2.1-2.2 for all the guys. I did my humble little 90s and they did their kick ass 270s. I hit the gates 5 out of 6 rounds. I got a distance of 158 feet in one distance round. I scored points in 3 out of 6 rounds. The point of this ridiculously long post is that all the practice on any size canopy will translate. Work on your pattern first, because that is what will make it easy for you to hit the course easily like I did, even in really challenging conditions. Then, work on changing one detail at a time. Get your turn rate and technique down up high. The move it down. These are all the things that will make you a safe, consistent, and competitive swooper. And then have fun playing with the boys! If you want to chat more or just want to share similar experiences, PM me! Safe Swoops, Katie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #9 July 5, 2005 QuoteI am responding to this because I am in a similar situation to you. I agree that your teammates should not have to change all of their wing loadings for what you are looking to learn with swooping. I don't think you should be thinking about changing what you have to learn to swoop. IMHO, I would stay with what you have (and I would not recommend going from a 135sf canopy directly to a sub-100sf canopy, even if you had been doing really good competition swoops) and learning with that first. I have taken an EXTREMELY conservative approach to learning. I spent hundreds of dives working on double fronts on my Sabre2 135 before progressing to a different canopy. Then, I spent at least 100 dives getting back to the point of good double fronts and consistency before thinking about moving to 90s. I have spent about 200 jumps working on 90s, and last weekend I entered my 1st competition for learning purposes. Many people have moved faster than I have. Many people think that by learning slowly it will give slower results. Last weekend is the "proof in the pudding." I have never practiced on gates, never measured my swoops, and I knew going into it that I was loading 1.35 compared to 2.1-2.2 for all the guys. I did my humble little 90s and they did their kick ass 270s. I hit the gates 5 out of 6 rounds. I got a distance of 158 feet in one distance round. I scored points in 3 out of 6 rounds. The point of this ridiculously long post is that all the practice on any size canopy will translate. Work on your pattern first, because that is what will make it easy for you to hit the course easily like I did, even in really challenging conditions. Then, work on changing one detail at a time. Get your turn rate and technique down up high. The move it down. These are all the things that will make you a safe, consistent, and competitive swooper. And then have fun playing with the boys! If you want to chat more or just want to share similar experiences, PM me! Safe Swoops, Katie (put the tear icon here.... if there was one) im so proud!!!, ian.. your teaching her well!.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beverly 1 #10 July 5, 2005 Thanks Katie, I will definately be keen to compare notes after every weekend. I found that I was not able to "swoop" my 132 Vision I was flying. It was not conducive to that type of canopy flight. I find that on the 105 hurricane, I can still land better and get some distance. My wing loading is better on the 105 with my team weights, so it gives better performance. I have been quite chuffed at the distances I am getting, just by playing with the canopy at this stage. WRT competitions etc, there is not much happening on this side of the world. The last one was at Nationals. We are trying to get a swoop tour off the ground at the moment, but there are only about 10 or so guys in the whole country that are capable of getting through the gates, least of all make any sort of dent in the distance events. There are a few that are good and have a decent amount of knowledge, but not any girls. So, yes, I will be bugging the hell out of you and Ian on this. BTW:how does being cute help my coaching needs?? I thought this type of sexual harassment died with first jump students and cutsie progression students. Now I just have to sit on my friends heads and make them help me! I think true friendship is under-rated Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rain-man 0 #11 July 5, 2005 ***you look like your a cutie., so i dont think you will have a problem finding help... *** Man. We just can't take you anywhere Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #12 July 5, 2005 Quote Now I just have to sit on my friends heads and make them help me! You really don't need to go that far. I'll help - I promise! (I guess I'm one of those 10 who can make the gates, eh?) tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rain-man 0 #13 July 5, 2005 *** BTW:how does being cute help my coaching needs?? *** It doesnt directly help your coaching needs but just might help your coach's needs! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beverly 1 #14 July 5, 2005 It doesnt directly help your coaching needs but just might help your coach's needs! Well now that you put it that way, I suppose I can help my coaches out a bit.... But swooping does not hurt my knees as much! Yet....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Peej 0 #15 July 5, 2005 Quote It doesnt directly help your coaching needs but just might help your coach's needs! Well now that you put it that way, I suppose I can help my coaches out a bit.... But swooping does not hurt my knees as much! Yet....... Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rain-man 0 #16 July 5, 2005 *** Many people have moved faster than I have. Many people think that by learning slowly it will give slower results. Last weekend is the "proof in the pudding." I have never practiced on gates, never measured my swoops, and I knew going into it that I was loading 1.35 compared to 2.1-2.2 for all the guys. I did my humble little 90s and they did their kick ass 270s. I hit the gates 5 out of 6 rounds. I got a distance of 158 feet in one distance round. I scored points in 3 out of 6 rounds. *** Grasshopper. Did you kick Ian's butt? But sreiously it is suprising how many bust up their approaches into the gates due to over-excitement in pulling off hard core turning approaches..only to be too steep or just too high. All turning approaches supposedly end in straight-in, high - speed, smooth and preferably shallow entries into the gates. Rehearsing double fronts..is rehersing the most important aspect of the swoop. Deep diving requires some skill and some judgement but has a large element of muscle and guts in it..and the shallow rounded entry turns all this energy into a useful swoop. You are on top of your game and the results show it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #17 July 5, 2005 QuoteGrasshopper. Did you kick Ian's butt? Not yet, but I'm expecting it to happen sometime soon QuoteYou are on top of your game and the results show it. Yeap, she's been a wonderful student (which is odd because normally couples coaching each other can lead to interesting results ). I cannot wait to see her realize her full potential. I also love the fact that when she does she'll be (I believe) a shining example on the RIGHT WAY to go about doing it all. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mindway69 0 #18 July 5, 2005 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #19 July 5, 2005 QuoteRehearsing double fronts..is rehersing the most important aspect of the swoop. what do you mean by this? QuoteDeep diving requires some skill and some judgement but has a large element of muscle and guts in it. and this. Quote..and the shallow rounded entry turns all this energy into a useful swoop. and this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rain-man 0 #20 July 5, 2005 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rehearsing double fronts..is rehersing the most important aspect of the swoop. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- what do you mean by this? Quote If i allow you to equate swooping to a rock skimming off water. Thats pretty much what you want to do. The intension is to have a shallow glide when you arrive at the threshold. The best way to start learning for this is to start off utilising double front riser approaches. It allows you to hone in your gate entry technique in an effficient way so that you have applied speed to your canopy, relieved the dive smoothly and entered the gate with grace like the rock skimming off the water. It takes away the added complexity of a heading change that turning approaches provide. Once you have this sussed out its cool because even when you progress to turning approaches..the turn ends with you facing the gates on heading ...seeking a straight-in, smooth, shallow entry. (back to square one only with perhaps more energy). Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Deep diving requires some skill and some judgement but has a large element of muscle and guts in it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and this.Quote Like i said above. Turning approaches are more complex because amongst other things they result in a change of heading as well as an increase in speed. Those who have skipped developing their heading control at the double front riser approach stage may find that they lack a bit on the heading control front and risk ending up being rudder-less missiles. Yeah sure you can pull a 270 hook..but can you drive through those gates? I have seen a few people bust like this. They would have been better off doing double fronts. Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..and the shallow rounded entry turns all this energy into a useful swoop. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and this.Quote The manner in which one transitions into level flight is very critical to a swoop and excelling at this increases the chances of maximizing distance yes or no? If the entry is not nice, round and smooth then you need to make adjustments which will work against your swoop. Abrupt changes in the pitch result in a high angle of attack..which kills airspeed oh well..and there goes your swoop. Best practice should be a transition that involves minimum angle of attack over a relatively long period of time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #21 July 5, 2005 good stuff.but there is no way in hell your jump numbers is correct. unless you have had ALOT of schooling. QuoteThe manner in which one transitions into level flight is very critical to a swoop and excelling at this increases the chances of maximizing distance yes or no? If the entry is not nice, round and smooth then you need to make adjustments which will work against your swoop. Abrupt changes in the pitch result in a high angle of attack..which kills airspeed oh well..and there goes your swoop. Best practice should be a transition that involves minimum angle of attack over a relatively long period of time. i do have somthing to say about this though. i used to be a STRONG believer in this. but depending on the tyupe of canopy, giving an abrupt change to an angle of attack is not always the wrong thing, if you di it correctly the results will be HUGE. this is after you have completed your turn and are on heading to the gates, but just slightly low. noty too low for toggles, but not high enough that your canopy is loosing speed while it is still in its dive. at just the right moment when it is at the end of the acceleration, you accellerate it more by abruptly changing the angle of attack with the rear risers, if done in the very small window you have to do it, it will send you far and fast... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rain-man 0 #22 July 5, 2005 Quote but there is no way in hell your jump numbers is correct. unless you have had ALOT of schooling.Quote its amazing how much you can learn from the forums during work With regards to pitch changes i meant with brakes not rear risers. Brakes bring your body back under your canopy when the dive has carried on for too long and involves distorting the back of the wing increasing drag. This is a swoop killer (well an efficient swoop killer) but essentially a bail out manoevre. Like you say rears can get some heavy duty distance onto your swoop i guess because using them results in moving the C.O.G further aft meaning the pilot can increase the angle of attack of the wing without significantly increasing the drag of the system. (beware of high speed stalls here) Maybe safe to say that 1) Rear risers help the swoop 2) Brakes kills the swoop 3) Use rear risers when everything is perfect 4) Use brakes when you are fucked. IMHO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chachi 0 #23 July 6, 2005 we need more female swoopers!! so good for you. you should get a canopy that you can fly at a consitant wingloading. you do not have to weight up for any portion until you need to gleen that little extra. a quote below from jay moledski off canopypiloting.com "Its not about how much weight you can wear, its how you fly your canopy. The only guys wearing a ton'o'weight and having any kind of success are already top ranked pilots who are looking to try and push the envelope and increase there scores buy a fractional amount. First learn to fly well, then learn to fly great, then learn to fly exceptionaly awsome, then use weights as a stratagy to compete for top position. You can trust me on this one, its not about how much weight you wear, its about how you fly your canopy. P.S. I competed most all of last season at a wing loading under 2.1 (wearin no weight) Fly-Free!! JAY" - get coaching - do high pulls - start ground launching - get accurate you need to have a plan of success. you need to slightly push yourself and also learn your limitations. i got serious, got accurate, and got a wing designed for swooping. i do not think all canopies are the best to learn to swoop on and you should be jumping something with that in mind. i also think local competitions are awesome. CPC over here will improve me tremendously and even though i am new to my canopy and finished 7th in the CP here i also learned soooo much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beverly 1 #24 July 7, 2005 Thanks for the info. We just don't have any competitions here, so you practice with yourself. Also at a DZ 5000 ft ASL inland and hot. I just wear weights for my normal jumping, so need to becareful. Cheers Bev I think true friendship is under-rated Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Peej 0 #25 July 7, 2005 Hey, just a thought, i'm spending lots of time sitting round the DZ these days while i get my JM requirements signed off. My camera is right next to me all the time, if you want your landings videod just shout at me on your way to boarding point. That way you can ask Tonto and Beasley to go over them later. IMO this is one of the best ways to get advice. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing × Sign In Sign Up Forums Dropzones Classifieds Gear Indoor Articles Photos Videos Calendar Stolen Fatalities Subscriptions Leaderboard Activity Back Activity All Activity My Activity Streams Unread Content Content I Started
marks 0 #6 July 5, 2005 you look like your a cutie., so i dont think you will have a problem finding help... a very good way to learn is to go out and watch, learn a few things then put yourself in a comp. dont expect to win. that may take a year or two, depending on the comps. get a group of peeps that are compedetive and also want to learn this and start going up against them. then share what you have learned with them and have them do the same. you have the jump numbers "and currency" to probably know when your pushing yourself to far. it really is a trial and error type thing to learn, but being able to watch, and being able to put yourself in the same situation will help you grow and learn also. then when you get a little better, start talkin shit to peeps!... telling them you can beat them, it will piss them off. and when it does they will train harder. then watch what they learn and take it in, and get jelouse, because you want to be better.... then train ... train... train.... train hard..... because you talked so much shit it is then time to deliver! ok, im rambleing.... go at your own pace, travel to comps and watch. ask questions, and build your base... then start fine tuning, make sure you have a drive and a love for it. because it can take a toll on you... the ones who think they are the best then goto comps. and not do so well then quit,.... will never learn. your not going to be the best, but you WILL get better! have fun. and be safe, add a few pounds and get it down before moving on... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #7 July 5, 2005 First of all, great post QuoteIts really a complex issue but IMHO usage of weights for swooping is best left for the big boys and by that i mean those who have been doing it for a while. Im not saying this from the benefits point of view but from the risk point of view. In a nut-shell if you are getting into swooping, weights are not necessary. It will be more about just being able to handle your canopy safely as is, your approach, your set up, and to hit the gates safely (you will be suprised how many people are poor at this). I agree. No matter your gender, you should be able to swoop your canopy well for it's given type and loading BEFORE adding any additional complexities such as weight. For example, a Katana 107 loaded at 1.2 is quite capable of a 200 ft + swoop. QuoteIn this case it probably needs to be stressed that if you are going to be serious about swooping.....dedicate jumps solely for that purpose. Pull high and figure out your canopy and its behaviour etc while you are in your full swoop configuration. You learn more that way. Amen. Swooping is NOT something you can do half ass. Either put a shitload of time and effort into it, or don't do it at all IMO. So Bev, if you're serious about this (and I think that's a great thing), then you're going to have to dedicate a significant amount of time to it to do it well. While you can always practice canopy stuff on 'regular' skydives, you should dedicate jumps that are for nothing else other than canopy flight. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mindway69 0 #8 July 5, 2005 I am responding to this because I am in a similar situation to you. I agree that your teammates should not have to change all of their wing loadings for what you are looking to learn with swooping. I don't think you should be thinking about changing what you have to learn to swoop. IMHO, I would stay with what you have (and I would not recommend going from a 135sf canopy directly to a sub-100sf canopy, even if you had been doing really good competition swoops) and learning with that first. I have taken an EXTREMELY conservative approach to learning. I spent hundreds of dives working on double fronts on my Sabre2 135 before progressing to a different canopy. Then, I spent at least 100 dives getting back to the point of good double fronts and consistency before thinking about moving to 90s. I have spent about 200 jumps working on 90s, and last weekend I entered my 1st competition for learning purposes. Many people have moved faster than I have. Many people think that by learning slowly it will give slower results. Last weekend is the "proof in the pudding." I have never practiced on gates, never measured my swoops, and I knew going into it that I was loading 1.35 compared to 2.1-2.2 for all the guys. I did my humble little 90s and they did their kick ass 270s. I hit the gates 5 out of 6 rounds. I got a distance of 158 feet in one distance round. I scored points in 3 out of 6 rounds. The point of this ridiculously long post is that all the practice on any size canopy will translate. Work on your pattern first, because that is what will make it easy for you to hit the course easily like I did, even in really challenging conditions. Then, work on changing one detail at a time. Get your turn rate and technique down up high. The move it down. These are all the things that will make you a safe, consistent, and competitive swooper. And then have fun playing with the boys! If you want to chat more or just want to share similar experiences, PM me! Safe Swoops, Katie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #9 July 5, 2005 QuoteI am responding to this because I am in a similar situation to you. I agree that your teammates should not have to change all of their wing loadings for what you are looking to learn with swooping. I don't think you should be thinking about changing what you have to learn to swoop. IMHO, I would stay with what you have (and I would not recommend going from a 135sf canopy directly to a sub-100sf canopy, even if you had been doing really good competition swoops) and learning with that first. I have taken an EXTREMELY conservative approach to learning. I spent hundreds of dives working on double fronts on my Sabre2 135 before progressing to a different canopy. Then, I spent at least 100 dives getting back to the point of good double fronts and consistency before thinking about moving to 90s. I have spent about 200 jumps working on 90s, and last weekend I entered my 1st competition for learning purposes. Many people have moved faster than I have. Many people think that by learning slowly it will give slower results. Last weekend is the "proof in the pudding." I have never practiced on gates, never measured my swoops, and I knew going into it that I was loading 1.35 compared to 2.1-2.2 for all the guys. I did my humble little 90s and they did their kick ass 270s. I hit the gates 5 out of 6 rounds. I got a distance of 158 feet in one distance round. I scored points in 3 out of 6 rounds. The point of this ridiculously long post is that all the practice on any size canopy will translate. Work on your pattern first, because that is what will make it easy for you to hit the course easily like I did, even in really challenging conditions. Then, work on changing one detail at a time. Get your turn rate and technique down up high. The move it down. These are all the things that will make you a safe, consistent, and competitive swooper. And then have fun playing with the boys! If you want to chat more or just want to share similar experiences, PM me! Safe Swoops, Katie (put the tear icon here.... if there was one) im so proud!!!, ian.. your teaching her well!.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beverly 1 #10 July 5, 2005 Thanks Katie, I will definately be keen to compare notes after every weekend. I found that I was not able to "swoop" my 132 Vision I was flying. It was not conducive to that type of canopy flight. I find that on the 105 hurricane, I can still land better and get some distance. My wing loading is better on the 105 with my team weights, so it gives better performance. I have been quite chuffed at the distances I am getting, just by playing with the canopy at this stage. WRT competitions etc, there is not much happening on this side of the world. The last one was at Nationals. We are trying to get a swoop tour off the ground at the moment, but there are only about 10 or so guys in the whole country that are capable of getting through the gates, least of all make any sort of dent in the distance events. There are a few that are good and have a decent amount of knowledge, but not any girls. So, yes, I will be bugging the hell out of you and Ian on this. BTW:how does being cute help my coaching needs?? I thought this type of sexual harassment died with first jump students and cutsie progression students. Now I just have to sit on my friends heads and make them help me! I think true friendship is under-rated Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rain-man 0 #11 July 5, 2005 ***you look like your a cutie., so i dont think you will have a problem finding help... *** Man. We just can't take you anywhere Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #12 July 5, 2005 Quote Now I just have to sit on my friends heads and make them help me! You really don't need to go that far. I'll help - I promise! (I guess I'm one of those 10 who can make the gates, eh?) tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rain-man 0 #13 July 5, 2005 *** BTW:how does being cute help my coaching needs?? *** It doesnt directly help your coaching needs but just might help your coach's needs! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beverly 1 #14 July 5, 2005 It doesnt directly help your coaching needs but just might help your coach's needs! Well now that you put it that way, I suppose I can help my coaches out a bit.... But swooping does not hurt my knees as much! Yet....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #15 July 5, 2005 Quote It doesnt directly help your coaching needs but just might help your coach's needs! Well now that you put it that way, I suppose I can help my coaches out a bit.... But swooping does not hurt my knees as much! Yet....... Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rain-man 0 #16 July 5, 2005 *** Many people have moved faster than I have. Many people think that by learning slowly it will give slower results. Last weekend is the "proof in the pudding." I have never practiced on gates, never measured my swoops, and I knew going into it that I was loading 1.35 compared to 2.1-2.2 for all the guys. I did my humble little 90s and they did their kick ass 270s. I hit the gates 5 out of 6 rounds. I got a distance of 158 feet in one distance round. I scored points in 3 out of 6 rounds. *** Grasshopper. Did you kick Ian's butt? But sreiously it is suprising how many bust up their approaches into the gates due to over-excitement in pulling off hard core turning approaches..only to be too steep or just too high. All turning approaches supposedly end in straight-in, high - speed, smooth and preferably shallow entries into the gates. Rehearsing double fronts..is rehersing the most important aspect of the swoop. Deep diving requires some skill and some judgement but has a large element of muscle and guts in it..and the shallow rounded entry turns all this energy into a useful swoop. You are on top of your game and the results show it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #17 July 5, 2005 QuoteGrasshopper. Did you kick Ian's butt? Not yet, but I'm expecting it to happen sometime soon QuoteYou are on top of your game and the results show it. Yeap, she's been a wonderful student (which is odd because normally couples coaching each other can lead to interesting results ). I cannot wait to see her realize her full potential. I also love the fact that when she does she'll be (I believe) a shining example on the RIGHT WAY to go about doing it all. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #19 July 5, 2005 QuoteRehearsing double fronts..is rehersing the most important aspect of the swoop. what do you mean by this? QuoteDeep diving requires some skill and some judgement but has a large element of muscle and guts in it. and this. Quote..and the shallow rounded entry turns all this energy into a useful swoop. and this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rain-man 0 #20 July 5, 2005 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rehearsing double fronts..is rehersing the most important aspect of the swoop. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- what do you mean by this? Quote If i allow you to equate swooping to a rock skimming off water. Thats pretty much what you want to do. The intension is to have a shallow glide when you arrive at the threshold. The best way to start learning for this is to start off utilising double front riser approaches. It allows you to hone in your gate entry technique in an effficient way so that you have applied speed to your canopy, relieved the dive smoothly and entered the gate with grace like the rock skimming off the water. It takes away the added complexity of a heading change that turning approaches provide. Once you have this sussed out its cool because even when you progress to turning approaches..the turn ends with you facing the gates on heading ...seeking a straight-in, smooth, shallow entry. (back to square one only with perhaps more energy). Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Deep diving requires some skill and some judgement but has a large element of muscle and guts in it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and this.Quote Like i said above. Turning approaches are more complex because amongst other things they result in a change of heading as well as an increase in speed. Those who have skipped developing their heading control at the double front riser approach stage may find that they lack a bit on the heading control front and risk ending up being rudder-less missiles. Yeah sure you can pull a 270 hook..but can you drive through those gates? I have seen a few people bust like this. They would have been better off doing double fronts. Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..and the shallow rounded entry turns all this energy into a useful swoop. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and this.Quote The manner in which one transitions into level flight is very critical to a swoop and excelling at this increases the chances of maximizing distance yes or no? If the entry is not nice, round and smooth then you need to make adjustments which will work against your swoop. Abrupt changes in the pitch result in a high angle of attack..which kills airspeed oh well..and there goes your swoop. Best practice should be a transition that involves minimum angle of attack over a relatively long period of time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #21 July 5, 2005 good stuff.but there is no way in hell your jump numbers is correct. unless you have had ALOT of schooling. QuoteThe manner in which one transitions into level flight is very critical to a swoop and excelling at this increases the chances of maximizing distance yes or no? If the entry is not nice, round and smooth then you need to make adjustments which will work against your swoop. Abrupt changes in the pitch result in a high angle of attack..which kills airspeed oh well..and there goes your swoop. Best practice should be a transition that involves minimum angle of attack over a relatively long period of time. i do have somthing to say about this though. i used to be a STRONG believer in this. but depending on the tyupe of canopy, giving an abrupt change to an angle of attack is not always the wrong thing, if you di it correctly the results will be HUGE. this is after you have completed your turn and are on heading to the gates, but just slightly low. noty too low for toggles, but not high enough that your canopy is loosing speed while it is still in its dive. at just the right moment when it is at the end of the acceleration, you accellerate it more by abruptly changing the angle of attack with the rear risers, if done in the very small window you have to do it, it will send you far and fast... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rain-man 0 #22 July 5, 2005 Quote but there is no way in hell your jump numbers is correct. unless you have had ALOT of schooling.Quote its amazing how much you can learn from the forums during work With regards to pitch changes i meant with brakes not rear risers. Brakes bring your body back under your canopy when the dive has carried on for too long and involves distorting the back of the wing increasing drag. This is a swoop killer (well an efficient swoop killer) but essentially a bail out manoevre. Like you say rears can get some heavy duty distance onto your swoop i guess because using them results in moving the C.O.G further aft meaning the pilot can increase the angle of attack of the wing without significantly increasing the drag of the system. (beware of high speed stalls here) Maybe safe to say that 1) Rear risers help the swoop 2) Brakes kills the swoop 3) Use rear risers when everything is perfect 4) Use brakes when you are fucked. IMHO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chachi 0 #23 July 6, 2005 we need more female swoopers!! so good for you. you should get a canopy that you can fly at a consitant wingloading. you do not have to weight up for any portion until you need to gleen that little extra. a quote below from jay moledski off canopypiloting.com "Its not about how much weight you can wear, its how you fly your canopy. The only guys wearing a ton'o'weight and having any kind of success are already top ranked pilots who are looking to try and push the envelope and increase there scores buy a fractional amount. First learn to fly well, then learn to fly great, then learn to fly exceptionaly awsome, then use weights as a stratagy to compete for top position. You can trust me on this one, its not about how much weight you wear, its about how you fly your canopy. P.S. I competed most all of last season at a wing loading under 2.1 (wearin no weight) Fly-Free!! JAY" - get coaching - do high pulls - start ground launching - get accurate you need to have a plan of success. you need to slightly push yourself and also learn your limitations. i got serious, got accurate, and got a wing designed for swooping. i do not think all canopies are the best to learn to swoop on and you should be jumping something with that in mind. i also think local competitions are awesome. CPC over here will improve me tremendously and even though i am new to my canopy and finished 7th in the CP here i also learned soooo much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beverly 1 #24 July 7, 2005 Thanks for the info. We just don't have any competitions here, so you practice with yourself. Also at a DZ 5000 ft ASL inland and hot. I just wear weights for my normal jumping, so need to becareful. Cheers Bev I think true friendship is under-rated Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Peej 0 #25 July 7, 2005 Hey, just a thought, i'm spending lots of time sitting round the DZ these days while i get my JM requirements signed off. My camera is right next to me all the time, if you want your landings videod just shout at me on your way to boarding point. That way you can ask Tonto and Beasley to go over them later. IMO this is one of the best ways to get advice. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing × Sign In Sign Up Forums Dropzones Classifieds Gear Indoor Articles Photos Videos Calendar Stolen Fatalities Subscriptions Leaderboard Activity Back Activity All Activity My Activity Streams Unread Content Content I Started
marks 0 #21 July 5, 2005 good stuff.but there is no way in hell your jump numbers is correct. unless you have had ALOT of schooling. QuoteThe manner in which one transitions into level flight is very critical to a swoop and excelling at this increases the chances of maximizing distance yes or no? If the entry is not nice, round and smooth then you need to make adjustments which will work against your swoop. Abrupt changes in the pitch result in a high angle of attack..which kills airspeed oh well..and there goes your swoop. Best practice should be a transition that involves minimum angle of attack over a relatively long period of time. i do have somthing to say about this though. i used to be a STRONG believer in this. but depending on the tyupe of canopy, giving an abrupt change to an angle of attack is not always the wrong thing, if you di it correctly the results will be HUGE. this is after you have completed your turn and are on heading to the gates, but just slightly low. noty too low for toggles, but not high enough that your canopy is loosing speed while it is still in its dive. at just the right moment when it is at the end of the acceleration, you accellerate it more by abruptly changing the angle of attack with the rear risers, if done in the very small window you have to do it, it will send you far and fast... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rain-man 0 #22 July 5, 2005 Quote but there is no way in hell your jump numbers is correct. unless you have had ALOT of schooling.Quote its amazing how much you can learn from the forums during work With regards to pitch changes i meant with brakes not rear risers. Brakes bring your body back under your canopy when the dive has carried on for too long and involves distorting the back of the wing increasing drag. This is a swoop killer (well an efficient swoop killer) but essentially a bail out manoevre. Like you say rears can get some heavy duty distance onto your swoop i guess because using them results in moving the C.O.G further aft meaning the pilot can increase the angle of attack of the wing without significantly increasing the drag of the system. (beware of high speed stalls here) Maybe safe to say that 1) Rear risers help the swoop 2) Brakes kills the swoop 3) Use rear risers when everything is perfect 4) Use brakes when you are fucked. IMHO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chachi 0 #23 July 6, 2005 we need more female swoopers!! so good for you. you should get a canopy that you can fly at a consitant wingloading. you do not have to weight up for any portion until you need to gleen that little extra. a quote below from jay moledski off canopypiloting.com "Its not about how much weight you can wear, its how you fly your canopy. The only guys wearing a ton'o'weight and having any kind of success are already top ranked pilots who are looking to try and push the envelope and increase there scores buy a fractional amount. First learn to fly well, then learn to fly great, then learn to fly exceptionaly awsome, then use weights as a stratagy to compete for top position. You can trust me on this one, its not about how much weight you wear, its about how you fly your canopy. P.S. I competed most all of last season at a wing loading under 2.1 (wearin no weight) Fly-Free!! JAY" - get coaching - do high pulls - start ground launching - get accurate you need to have a plan of success. you need to slightly push yourself and also learn your limitations. i got serious, got accurate, and got a wing designed for swooping. i do not think all canopies are the best to learn to swoop on and you should be jumping something with that in mind. i also think local competitions are awesome. CPC over here will improve me tremendously and even though i am new to my canopy and finished 7th in the CP here i also learned soooo much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beverly 1 #24 July 7, 2005 Thanks for the info. We just don't have any competitions here, so you practice with yourself. Also at a DZ 5000 ft ASL inland and hot. I just wear weights for my normal jumping, so need to becareful. Cheers Bev I think true friendship is under-rated Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Peej 0 #25 July 7, 2005 Hey, just a thought, i'm spending lots of time sitting round the DZ these days while i get my JM requirements signed off. My camera is right next to me all the time, if you want your landings videod just shout at me on your way to boarding point. That way you can ask Tonto and Beasley to go over them later. IMO this is one of the best ways to get advice. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
chachi 0 #23 July 6, 2005 we need more female swoopers!! so good for you. you should get a canopy that you can fly at a consitant wingloading. you do not have to weight up for any portion until you need to gleen that little extra. a quote below from jay moledski off canopypiloting.com "Its not about how much weight you can wear, its how you fly your canopy. The only guys wearing a ton'o'weight and having any kind of success are already top ranked pilots who are looking to try and push the envelope and increase there scores buy a fractional amount. First learn to fly well, then learn to fly great, then learn to fly exceptionaly awsome, then use weights as a stratagy to compete for top position. You can trust me on this one, its not about how much weight you wear, its about how you fly your canopy. P.S. I competed most all of last season at a wing loading under 2.1 (wearin no weight) Fly-Free!! JAY" - get coaching - do high pulls - start ground launching - get accurate you need to have a plan of success. you need to slightly push yourself and also learn your limitations. i got serious, got accurate, and got a wing designed for swooping. i do not think all canopies are the best to learn to swoop on and you should be jumping something with that in mind. i also think local competitions are awesome. CPC over here will improve me tremendously and even though i am new to my canopy and finished 7th in the CP here i also learned soooo much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beverly 1 #24 July 7, 2005 Thanks for the info. We just don't have any competitions here, so you practice with yourself. Also at a DZ 5000 ft ASL inland and hot. I just wear weights for my normal jumping, so need to becareful. Cheers Bev I think true friendship is under-rated Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #25 July 7, 2005 Hey, just a thought, i'm spending lots of time sitting round the DZ these days while i get my JM requirements signed off. My camera is right next to me all the time, if you want your landings videod just shout at me on your way to boarding point. That way you can ask Tonto and Beasley to go over them later. IMO this is one of the best ways to get advice. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
