Help with small girls!!

[davelepka 4]

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You might think about keeping her under her current wing and having her wear a weight belt to gradually increase her wingloading to eventually equal what it would be under the smaller canopy

This is retarded. If she is that small, she is most likely already wearing weights, and adding to that is only increasing her chances of injury on landing. If she is not wearing weights, canopy flight is no reason to introduce that hazard to her situation.

If she is compotent with her current wing, she is ready for a reasonable downsize.

People have become quite ready to add weights without thinking through the consequences. Wearing weights for the purposes of canopy flight needs to be reserved for those who can realize the potential offerd by the increase in WL. An upcoming pilot who is ready to downsize, should donwsize. If you're not ready to downsize, adding weight to 'half' downsize is stupid.

[Spizzzarko 0]

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People have become quite ready to add weights without thinking through the consequences. Wearing weights for the purposes of canopy flight needs to be reserved for those who can realize the potential offerd by the increase in WL.

Well said.

[Erroll 80]

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People have become quite ready to add weights without thinking through the consequences.

Even if adding weights did help this lass with her canopy flight, surely it would at the same time badly compromise her freefall fallrate (assuming she does any kind of relative work)?.

[LoudDan 0]

Alrighty then boy genius, I'll not name the person who turned me on to what you termed "half downsizing", but I am very interested in hearing why this is "stupid" and "retarded". (I'd start choosing my words a little more carefully if I was you)

You're going to tell me that putting a small amount of weight on and gradually adding weight under a familiar wing until you reach the wing-loading you wish to attain under a new smaller wing (without weight) is a worthless endeavor. I can tell you from personal experience, that the method works, and that the key to the whole thing is (GRADUALLY).

Maybe your right, this whole gradual approach to things is silly, it is a much better idea to just hop on a smaller wing, go for it, and see what happens. No one ever gets hurt that way.

Sorry folks the logic train has just left the station.

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

[davelepka 4]

I think you replied to the wrong guy regarding your retarded idea. Either way I'm glad you did, as after I posted yesterday, I thought of some additional reasons why your idea is stupid (or retarded, or whatever). So, lets get started...

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I'll not name the person who turned me on to what you termed "half downsizing",

I'm guessing that your confidentiality is your way of adding to the credibility of your 'source'. If you read the conclusiuon to my post, I state that, "People have become....." when expressing my thoughts on addign weights. If your 'source' is indeed a person, then he or she is included in the group I believe to be in error.

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You're going to tell me that putting a small amount of weight on and gradually adding weight under a familiar wing until you reach the wing-loading you wish to attain under a new smaller wing (without weight) is a worthless endeavor.

I didn't say it was worthless, I said it was retarded (and then later I called it stupid). If you're interested in raising the WL of your current canopy, that is certainly one way to do it, and the act posses worth if that's your goal. All of this, however is unrelated to the retarded-factor of your idea.

By adding weight to your current canopy, you will, in addition to increasing WL, increase your speeds in feefall, and for opening, and increase the pressure on your ankles, legs and hips on landing. In the case of a reserve ride, you have just riased your reserve WL accordingly, and along with landing an unfamiliar canopy at a now higher WL, your still wearing all that lead. In the worst case scenario, and you are involved an incident, I can't see that lead helping any at the point of impact. Whew...

Lets look specifically at your situaiton. Your current set-up is a Sabre2 135 (1.85) and a PD160R (1.56). This adds up to an exit weight of 249 lbs. Guessing that your last downsize was from a 150, by the end of your time with the 150, you would need to wear 29 lbs of lead to equal the WL of the 135. If I'm not mistaken, this gives you an exit weight of 278 lbs.

First off, doesn't this exceed the TSO of your harness? I'm not sure of the numbers, but you're somewhere in that neighborhood. I'm sure your reserve is also at, or close to, exceeding the Mfg's limitations. Equipment failure is a bitch, and I'm guessing that with an exit weight of 278, your airspeed isn't helping anything.

Provided your gear holds together, now you have to land a canopy carrying 29 lbs of lead. That weight narrows your window of acceptable descent rates on landing. It's a simple fact, more weight plus less force will snap your leg just like more force with less weight.

Landing your reserve at 1.7 hauling an extra 29 lbs. should be fun as well. With 750 jumps, and 1 year in the sport, I'm guessing you don't have much time under F-111 7-cells (don't forget about your 29 lbs). I load my reserve up, but I have 100 or so jumps on an F-111 7-cell, and five times as many jumps as you, and I don't wear lead. Ever.

All of the above is leaving out the concept that a Sabre2 150 at 1.8, is not the same thing as a Sabre2 135 at 1.8. The shorter line-set will see to that., and that's provided that you went from Sabre2 to Sabre2. Throw in a model change, and you learn even less about your new canopy......

....which really brings me to my point, which is that is the situation in question, your idea is even more retarded. For a small girl jumping a Sabre 97, no amount of weight will make the Sabre fly like a Stiletto. It will fly like a more-loaded Sabre, but not a Stiletto (for the record, I have more Sabre jumps than you have alltogether, and three times that mant Stiletto jumps). With 1000 jumps, and a history of good canopy control, the downsize to a Stiletto 89 is very reasonable, and with a few minutes of talking to an experienced Stiletto pilot (and those are so hard to come by) and a few dedicated jumps, she should be on her way to enjoying her new canopy for another safe 1000 jumps.

The simple fact is this. Fly what you have, learn it inside and out, and than do another 100 jumps with it, and see you more you learned. Be ready when you downsize, and fly like a student for 20 jumps or so. This is how you do it. Adding weight is for guys who need the weight to fly one canopy in a competition, and needs different loadings for each event (or for the factory guys who have every size canopy, and the time and experience to know what size at what loading will go 678 ft).

Oh shit, I just thought of this. You list swooping as an interest of yours, and that 29 lbs, would SUCK in a pond. I've had nightmares like that, where I'm drowning, and I can't get to the surface, no matter how hard I try.....

[mattjw916 2]

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I didn't say it was worthless, I said it was retarded (and then later I called it stupid).

I have heard both Dusty Smith and TJ Landgren suggest exactly what you think is retarded/stupid/etc, i.e when you are thinking about downsizing, borrow some weight and make some dedicated canopy jumps to get an idea of the increases in speed you will encounter. Obviously doing so should not put you over the "max" loading according to the main/reserve manufacturers though. Apparently opinions vary on this, but personally I'd trust Dusty or TJ over Mr. Lepka, but that's just me.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[davelepka 4]

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should not put you over the "max" loading according to the main/reserve manufacturers though.

Don't forget about the max loading for your legs.

Also, keep in mind, that the bigger canopy you are jumping the more weight it takes to make a difference. Guys jumping a 90, who are thinking about an 84 need only ten pounds to experience the equivilant WL.

Typically, those jumping bigger canopies have fewer jumps, and less developed skills, and they would be the ones wearing more lead to get the desired effect. As you see from my example, the difference from a 150 to a 135 equals close to 30 lbs. Thats crazy.

[LoudDan 0]

Alrighty then.........

First of all, we are no talking about me, or my wingloading, or how infrequently I update my profile, (I'll get to it I promise).

If the skydiver in question wanted to raise her wingloading to that of the smaller Katana it would take roughly 19 lbs., which I think most will agree is not a whole helluva lot. As for the freefall issue, like I said she should be working this from hop and pops (High alt and low alt). I also said she should take it GRADUALLY (I even put that in big 'ol letters), you know 5 lbs at a time, maybe start with 10lbs and work her way up something of that nature. I can't think of too many (OK any) of the pilots on the PST or CPC that would recommend a 15% downsize "grab, go, and figure it out" approach (the definition of both retarded and stupid).

As far as leg breaking, oh I don't know maybe slide it in, PLF, something along those lines. My personal experience has revealed that the added weight under the bigger wing while increasing approach speeds, also generates more lift under brakes (you know flare) who woulda thunk it huh. Kinda allows you to get used to the faster speeds while maintaining more than adequate braking (unless you're overloading the canopy which I don't think is an issue here).

And please don't have any more nightmares about drowning in a pond with weight on, every time I've chowed in a pond, I've made sure to stand up and get my head out of the water immediately, seems to work pretty well.

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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And please don't have any more nightmares about drowning in a pond with weight on, every time I've chowed in a pond, I've made sure to stand up and get my head out of the water immediately, seems to work pretty well.

Dan, that might work in a puddle or a specially-built swoop pond, but I would love to see you try that at The Ranch. It's very, very deep. Totally off topic, but your statement had to be answered.

[davelepka 4]

Just to be clear, my suggestion was for her to jump an 89 Stiletto. If she were to weight her Sabre to match the 1.28 WL the 89 would provide would take 10 lbs. of lead, but it's still not a great idea.

Your claim that 19lbs. is reasonable for this jumper is outrageous. Her exit weight is 115 lbs. Unlikey as it may be, I'll even say that she doesn't wear lead for fallrate purposes, giving her a bodyweight between 95 and 100 lbs. Do you realize that 19lbs. represents approx 20% of her bodyweight? If she is already weraing a few pounds for fallrate, that percentage only goes up.

Lets look at you in those terms. Your exit weight is 248 lbs. I'm guessing that your bodyweight is around 230lbs. For you to wear 20% of that in lead has you wearing 46lbs. How's that sound? Why not man-up, strap it on, and prove your point by jumping it.

I would challenge you to find a PST competitor who would see any problem with the downsize. 1000 jumps, good history of canopy control going from a Sabre 97 at 1.18 to a Stiletto 89 at 1.28 is not a big stretch.

As far as your slide/PLF comments, I'm thinking about the situations you can't control. Canopy collisions, near misses, downdrafts, rotors, turbulence, whatever you like, it's out there, and when you find it, lead will not be your friend.

[dragon2 2]

Maybe not a big stretch, but a similar canopy is what got Nadine killed earlier this year

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[davelepka 4]

Similar to what? My suggestion was for a Stiletto 89. It seems the jumper has no interest in swooping, and is regarded a solid canopy pilot, both of which I took into account with my suggestion.

The incident you're speaking of contains many factors that separate it from this discussion. A higher WL, lots of lead, a donwwinder in strong winds, combined with the pressure of competition. Not to mention the drastic difference between a Katana and a Stiletto.

A jumper with 1000 jumps flying a straight-in approach with a Stiletto at 1.28 does not give me cause for concern.

Edit:

Lets also keep in mind the chick-factor. Despite the incident we were discussing, it's no secret that females are typically much more conservative (as in smarter) under canopy. They are less likely to take a chance when compared to their male counterparts, and if this one has made it 1000 jumps without swooping, I would doubt that a new canopy would insipre her to start taking chances.

Guys often times feel a need to prove something, like who has the biggest balls (I like balls). The ladies have no balls, they have boobies, and everyone can plainly see what size they are.

[LoudDan 0]

The key word that I keep putting in but keeps getting omitted is "GRADUALLY" as in progressive increase. Not throw 20 lbs. on out the door first time out, maybe try 5, or whatever the comfort level is. As the subject becomes comfortable with the performance changes in her canopy flight and landings, hell she can progress in one or two pound increments if she wants. GRADUALLY PROGRESS!!

If your more comfortable with feeding her a large meal to gain five lbs. go for it, I suppose that might work too.

As far as manning up, in order to get close to her wing loading, I'd have to find someone with like a 230, as for that, I've got 30lbs. wanna lend me 16. And yes, I GRADUALLY PROGRESSED up to useing 30 lbs, under both my 190 and 170.

Polywallydoodle all the day.

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

[RMURRAY 1]

she has 1000 jumps and has been in the sport for 10 years (ie gained some knowledge along the way). she should be able to select a canopy to try out - if not, I'd say she better stick with what she knows...

rm

[davelepka 4]

Any way you want to approach it, the increased risks of wearing lead still exist. If you are comfortable with these risks, that is your choice, but in the instance in questions, it remains a poor choice.

[LoudDan 0]

Have you tried this method? If not, and your simply drawing conclusions, and making educated guesses, how do you know??

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

[davelepka 4]

Have I tried what? adding weights to prep for a downsize? No I have not. In truth, I was done downsizing before anyone thought about weights as a way to modify their WL.

I do know that adding weights has mnay drawbacks from a safety standpoint. I also know that increasing your WL on one canopy will not make it fly like a smaller canopy. It will fly likt the same canopy at a higher WL.

You would be much better served, in both the long and short term, to simply develop your skills such that they are beyond the capability of your current wing, and simply make an intelligent and logical choice for a downsize, and proceed with caution on your new wing.

Save adding weights for when either A) they don't make a smaller canopy, and you want to go faster, or B) competition compells you to alter your WL for each event. In either case your skills need to be such that they are beyond the capabilities of your wing without weights.

So am I making an educated guess? Maybe so. Am I educated, and does my guess make an awful lot of sense. Absolutely.

[LoudDan 0]

I'm sure to you your decision based on your experience makes sense to you, and in the process forms your "OPINION".

Just as coaching, seminars, and competitions with the some of the best the canopy piloting world has to offer has caused me to form my "OPINION" based on what was recommended to me and the reasons given for said recommendations.

All I can say is that from first hand experience the method I offered worked for myself and some others who were more comfortable progressing in this manner.

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

[Beverly 1]

Any which way, you are all speaking of a girl weighing 95-100lbs.
Any weights leading upto 10lbs is 10 % of her body weight.
Not Great.

Do an away visit to a high altitude DZ, swoop or no swoop, you are in danger zone.

Take away the balls and pride and you might have a conservative canopy pilot.

Add the 100 jumps a year and you enter a medium currency jumper - caution.

So all in all, taking the fact that SHE might be jumping with 10+ lbs of weight on any given skydive, her wingloading is high for a medium currency jumper.

Just a caution.

I don't want to see another girl in the Incidents Forum this year. There have been too many already and it is because of boyfriends and guys on the DZ pushing them and telling them they will be fine.

If you cannot conservatively land a canopy at 5000ft above sea level on a no wind day, stay where you are!!

I am exiting at 145lbs and sometimes at 151.8lbs.
On a 105 canopy at 5000ft ASL. It is fast!! Believe me!!
And I am doing 5 times the amount of jumps she is.

Be careful guys!
That is all I am emphasising. Be careful. This is high performace stuff you are talking about.

I think true friendship is under-rated

Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa