Ban using weights

[speedy 0]

I personally think we will have to do something about weights in the near future. One aspect is that pretty soon we are going to need forklift trucks to load the jumpers into the aircraft. The twin otter will be limited to just 12 swoopers or 20+ normal jumpers.

Somewhere in this thread people have mentioned 40 lbs of weight, I have seen over 60 lbs being used. Is this not getting too much?

If you want to discuss drugs and swooping please start your own thread

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[davelepka 4]

Thats not a bad point. Three average size guys with 40 lbs of lead each might be about all a 182 could muster on a hot day.

Or on a load with a lot of weighted swoopers, you could end up with 200 lbs of lead on a bigger AC. Thats equal to another jumper, and should be considered with weight and balance for the Ac.

[frost 1]

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Does everyone recall the novice (under 200 jumps) who was "training" at the Perris swoop park with 20# of lead on a sub 100 xBrace who hooked it in trying to hit a set of 5' gates?

No way!! who let him enter?? Where can i read about that?

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With nearly a dozen different swoop related web sites (CPC, PST, WSA, JS.com, SHockwaveprod,etc, etc,) your going to need to stay awake a long time to read all of that.

Arent they all one and the same though? ;)

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[dharma1976 0]

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Does everyone recall the novice (under 200 jumps) who was "training" at the Perris swoop park with 20# of lead on a sub 100 xBrace who hooked it in trying to hit a set of 5' gates?

No way!! who let him enter?? Where can i read about that?

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With nearly a dozen different swoop related web sites (CPC, PST, WSA, JS.com, SHockwaveprod,etc, etc,) your going to need to stay awake a long time to read all of that.

Arent they all one and the same though? ;)

actually he had more jumps than that his name was Allen Tonkin and he was the manifester at Perris when it happened and he had about 300 jumps.

I remember it like it was yesterday, as far as I know he is still in a wheel chair.


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1125853;search_string=Perris%20Velo%2090;#1125853

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[frost 1]

Thanks for the link, Dave. Very interesting read. Dont know how i missed that

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[dharma1976 0]

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Thanks for the link, Dave. Very interesting read. Dont know how i missed that

you know its funny but re-reading that and thinking about my friend makes me want to upsize to the Xfire 149 ;)

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[raymod2 1]

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In an event like ZA, there is no benefit to running it downwind. Speed and distance both reap huge benefits from running downwind

The benefit is that it makes the event more difficult so that skill is more likely to trump luck.

[marks 0]

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In an event like ZA, there is no benefit to running it downwind. Speed and distance both reap huge benefits from running downwind

The benefit is that it makes the event more difficult so that skill is more likely to trump luck.

i believe that is true, but at the cpc level "entry level" things need to be a little more safe.

peeps with 500 jumps or more can compete in the cpc. and with the way the rule stands, it is allowable to have 15mph downwind in "any event". and that can get VERY dangerous to someone who has 500-1000 jumps.

[Treejumps 0]

I think it is totally fair. What you are saying is that instead of the 2 pilots honing their skills and having the better one win the day.... let them strap on weight in hopes that it helps them make up for poor/lack of skill. On any given day I'll place my bet on the guy at 1.8 who has taken the time to dial in his or her canopy. Consistancy always wins. When Craig G. won the Ranch meet in 2000 (I think it was 2000) on a Stilleto, it wasn't becasue he had the fastest canopy made or the highest wingloading. It was because he was consistant. When Johnny Utah won that Redbull event in Chi, it was consistancy over "going big". That is the differecne between using weight and not.

Considering that most swoopers only get 75% (if they are lucky) of what their canopy can do, I think it is totally fair. When those pilots are all wringing every last bit out of their wings and the heavier guy keeps winning, well then they would both be in the Pro class.

Until then, you skinny folks keep eating McDonalds, or, just get the chunky swooper you just can't seem to beat hooked on meth.

Cya.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Next time Kaz is up there tell her you said she can't wear weights when she's competing using your theories. Somehow I don't think she'll like it. It's easy to say not to wear weights when you load a 120 vx at 2.29 lbs/ft²

I'm not against reasonable limits, but I think saying you can wear however much you want is just as bad as saying you can't wear any at all. You just flip the unbalance. The idea is supposed to be leveling the playing field.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[marks 0]

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When Craig G. won the Ranch meet in 2000 (I think it was 2000) on a Stilleto, it wasn't becasue he had the fastest canopy made or the highest wingloading. It was because he was consistant. When Johnny Utah won that Redbull event in Chi, it was consistancy over "going big". That is the differecne between using weight and not.

things have changed, ALOT!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Consistancy always wins.

Brian McNenney (winner of the 2005 CPC Championships) was not only consistent making the entry gates on all 8 rounds, but he also set the CPC Distance record while wearing tons of weight (not to be confused with the distance record set by Jay Moledski). Yes consistency wins ... we as swoop competitors already know this. But weight isn't such a bad thing for those who have taken the time to apply themselves in this sport.

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let them strap on weight in hopes that it helps them make up for poor/lack of skill

Why is it that people assume that people who strap on weight have no skill? Were you there at the CPC Championships this year? I don't remember seeing you there. Yet you're making the assumption that most of the field (who wore weights) had no skill when in fact there was a lot of skill (from an amateur's point of view) there this year and next year should be even better.

This remark reminds me of all those people who at the beginning of this CPC season pretty much wrote me off saying that I would finish in last place of our local region, telling me that I didn't have a hope in hell in finishing in the top five since I was a rookie swoop competitor. Thanks for the vote of confidence people. I look forward to showing you how skilled most of us CPCers are again next year when we make the entry gates time after time.

One thing that should be brought up here in this topic about wearing weights is making sure you don't overload your reserve. I jump a large-ish PD143R. But I know most people are using much smaller reserves. I'd hate to be trying to land a reserve in a tight area wearing tons of weight.

PS: Hey flame away ... I unfortunately must need to sign off now from DZ.COM thanks to my move and the need to return my cable modem back to Comcast. I hope to resurface again in a few days though.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[dragon2 2]

We had a slight problem with the extra weight in the plane, during the Euro Swoop finals at Lake Bussloo Beach (Teuge) last month. We had everyone weighed, and it turned out we could put 15 (somewhat selected) swoopers in our Grand Caravan, which normally takes 16-18 jumpers (depending on fuel).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Treejumps 0]

Yes, but Kaz competes at the highest levels. If we are talking open competition, bring it all on. Weights, jet packs, and Bushes baked beans. I thought we were talking about CPC, which I also thought was billed as a feeder comp for PST.

Hey wait a minute, are you calling me chunky?

And despite being 2.something on a 120, and a pretty decent swooper, there were plenty of average size guys on 79s and 90s who cruised right on by me.

I think you are right about reasonable limits, but as always, the devil is in the details. I hereby change my mind and say let people wear weights. Its no different then folks buying too small a canopy. Besides, there will be more used larger xbraces on the market in case I ever need another back up canopy.

Cya.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Hey wait a minute, are you calling me chunky?

Horizontally healthy?

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I thought we were talking about CPC, which I also thought was billed as a feeder comp for PST.

Yeah you're right in that we're talking about the CPC but there are going to be restrictions in the Pro category too (and I was surprised at how many people at this years CPC finals could quite easily compete in the Pro category and do well) - but granted that's not the point.

Seriously though I do agree with you on a lot of levels. My resistance is that I believe whatever mechanism is put in place should be fair - that's all.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[superstu 0]

i posted this on cp.com as well but don't know how many of you go there, so here is a copy and paste of my thoughts on this issue.

how about wingload categories (not restrictions), instead of weight categories?

What i mean is why not have categories such as if you're at 2.2 and below you're in category A, if you're 2.2+ then cat. B. that way you can wear as much or little weight as you want or your body can handle. if we put restrictions on our selves such as all CPC competitors can only fly at 2.2 and below then i think we will be hurting the progression of the sport severly (sp).

For me personally I don't want to be restricted on what i fly, how i fly, or how much i load my canopy at.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I don't think a wingload restriction is the answer at all, bro. The problem here is that folks are simply strapping too much shit to their body in order to attain what they consider to be "competitive" wingloads under the much-larger canopies some favor these days.. I am just wondering how long it is before someone shows up to compete with a freefall deployed paraglider (loaded up, of course) just to set a distance record. Seem far fetched? Not to me; not the way things went this year.

Personally; and I have stated this over and over; I don't think anyone competing in the CPC has any business wearing anything heavier than their standard skydiving lead. If you wear six or eight pounds to spin four-way, then that's fine. The intent is to learn competition skills in a structured environment.

Chuck

[frost 1]

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not the way things went this year.

Just curious... what do u mean? how did things go this year?

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[vdschoor 0]

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not the way things went this year.

Just curious... what do u mean? how did things go this year?

The trend this year was bigger wings with more weight, to get to the same wingloading.

[frost 1]

Just that? I mean i knew that, i thought may be someone showed up on something bigger then 120 loaded at 2.6 or something :)

Size does matter after all :)

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[diablopilot 2]

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not the way things went this year.

Just curious... what do u mean? how did things go this year?

The trend this year was bigger wings with more weight, to get to the same wingloading.

Just so people are clear on it, it's not ALL about wing loading, much of the distance records come from the momentum carried by all that weight.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[CanopyPiloting 0]

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I don't think a wingload restriction is the answer at all, bro. The problem here is that folks are simply strapping too much shit to their body in order to attain what they consider to be "competitive" wingloads under the much-larger canopies some favor these days.. I am just wondering how long it is before someone shows up to compete with a freefall deployed paraglider (loaded up, of course) just to set a distance record. Seem far fetched? Not to me; not the way things went this year.

Personally; and I have stated this over and over; I don't think anyone competing in the CPC has any business wearing anything heavier than their standard skydiving lead. If you wear six or eight pounds to spin four-way, then that's fine. The intent is to learn competition skills in a structured environment.

Chuck

Look at skymonkey go, you know what's up don't you. If you got time you may want to check out the discussion at the "Canopy Piloting Circuit" forum www.canopypiloting.com

[livenletfly 0]

awsome q'. one that should come up since the mile high cpc. j.t i heard had 70 lbs. of weight starpped on. this is getting a little crazy.
for starters, people posting the reason for weighting up is to increase w/l are wrong, and havent thought it threw. if that was the only reason the pilot would just simply downsize to a smaller canopy.the reason is more than that, its too at times keep the same w/l but with a larger wing. bigger wing has more lift than a smaller with the same w/l.
if jumping weights is so benificial, what i dont understand is this; why wouldnt someone the size of j.c rarley be beaten by someone the size of heath r. jc flies a velo 120 loaded around 2.3. heath probably loading his 88 around the same. would you say j.c has that much of an advantage that its worth a jumper to strap on 70 pounds of weight to jump a larger wing? if yes than why wouldnt a weight class be a good thing. it would. some people arent ready or willing to strap on a shit load of weight. they shouldnt be at a disadvantage because of this. more people dont use weight than do. so i think when swooping has enough competiters to have sepperate weight class it would be a good system. as well as some kind of structure to the amount of weight would be great! in alot of other sports in which a competitors weight gives hima significant andvantage, theres always a weight class system to keep the competition about the skill and talent of the athletes. i like this idea.
maybee im totaly wrong here cuz i dont competete nor use more than 10 lbs of weight for doing aff. im speaking as a spectator so i understand if people dont agree with me, but i do want to knwo why you dont agree.

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[livenletfly 0]

i agree with skymonkey. i dont think its wrong for a small girl competiter to strap on 20lbs to even the odds, but we will soon see someone strapping on 100lbs. to increase their odds, and that folks is fucking rediculus. (sp?).
nuff said.
p.s the pic is my sweet ass new velo! i just wanted to show it off.

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[speedy 0]

I currently jump my velocity at 2.45 to 1 when swooping. To get the same WL without weights I would have to buy a Velocity 69. That in itself is a problem, the smallest they make is a 79.

Also an interesting trend is wingloading increasing, line sets getting thinner

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl