Discussion on that rear-riser tandem swoop.

[Spizzzarko 0]

"Relax Francis"

[chachi 0]

swooping tandems is like TM's wearing handcams. If you have 1000+ tandems you can start making informed decisions based on your skill level. before thats (approx.) you are playing with fire.

[Fledgling 0]

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I honestly don't understand the concept of swooping tandems. As a paid tandem instructor your only priority should be getting your passenger back on the ground safely. Why increase your chance of accidents?

I would have thought it would be safer caus they stand up the landings, rather than landing on the butt, which can result in
a broken coccyx(not sure if i spelt it right). Seen this happen.

Just because you land on your but it doesn't mean that you have to land hard. It's safer to land on your ass than risk the passenger tripping over as you try to stand up or run off any excess speed.

[johnny1488 1]

If you hurt yourself or your passenger sliding in a landing you are doing it wrong!

But seriously, you can slide a landing without your ass or even anypart of the student touching the ground.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't ever pound in on my ass.

I thought this was important to repeat. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rhino 0]

Swooping tandems is wrong. The tm may know and accept the risk, the student doesn't. Unecessary and wreckless.

Rhino

[divnswoop 0]

Not to say anything is right or wrong, but just an observation during my past 10 years being a TI. I have seen more students injured because the TI didn't flare the parachute all the way, than I have seen a TI hook a student it. Granted I don't see many TI's doing turns thus reducing the chances of it happening. Don't get me wrong, I'm not encouraging TI's to start building up speed for landings. I'm just tired to seeing students holding their ass cause the TI flared to halfway and then a chunk of sod goes flying across the landing area.

[micro 0]

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I don't ever pound in on my ass.

if you did, we'd seriously have to have a talk w/ your beautiful wife.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[LukeOliver 0]

Used to work with a guy who toggle hooked every tandem landing he did. Always pulled it off, looked cool, pretty good touchdowns. 6' tall, too, that helped.

He's still in hospital I think, since before Christmas, with a range of injuries. Home DZ, did his usual thing, got it wrong. One of his rare jumps on his sports equipment.

Thank !@#$ he didn't have someone on the front.

L.

[Fledgling 0]

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Swooping tandems is wrong. The tm may know and accept the risk, the student doesn't. Unecessary and wreckless.

Rhino

I couldn't agree more.

[raymod2 1]

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Swooping tandems is wrong. The tm may know and accept the risk, the student doesn't. Unecessary and wreckless.

Rhino

That's very judgemental especially from someone who isn't a tandem instructor. But why stop there? Why not say that all tandem skydiving is wrong. The instructor may appreciate the risk but the student doesn't. Skydiving is unnecessary and reckless.

[Fledgling 0]

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Swooping tandems is wrong. The tm may know and accept the risk, the student doesn't. Unecessary and wreckless.

Rhino

That's very judgemental especially from someone who isn't a tandem instructor. But why stop there? Why not say that all tandem skydiving is wrong. The instructor may appreciate the risk but the student doesn't. Skydiving is unnecessary and reckless.

As a paid tandem instructor your main priority should be to bring your passenger back to earth as safely as possible. There is no justifiable reason to increase the risk factor by trying to swoop tandem landings. If any one does think this is safe then how do you feel about tandem CRW?

[divnswoop 0]

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As a paid tandem instructor your main priority should be to bring your passenger back to earth as safely as possible.

I COMPLETELY AGREE!!!

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There is no justifiable reason to increase the risk factor by trying to swoop tandem landings.

(just discussing here) So are we going to pull ratings or suspend TI's who "hook" their tandems? If so I feel the same should happen to TI's who CONSTANTLY pound their students into the ground.

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If any one does think this is safe then how do you feel about tandem CRW?

Unfortunately, we did this (more or less) with the cameramen at a DZ I worked at.... It took several near-miss and actual contact on openings for this to change...
The video is a DISTANT second as far as priorities on a tandem. I have seen TI's changing their procedures (myself included) to "accomodate" a cameraman and that is just plain stupid.

[Fledgling 0]

I also agree with thumping in. If you can't get it right you shouldn't be doing it.

[davelepka 4]

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There is no justifiable reason to increase the risk factor by trying to swoop tandem landings

Agreed. But there is a point at which you're not 'trying' anything, you're just doing it. An accomplished canopy pilot, who is also an accomplished TM, who has sufficent experience on a certain model of tandem canopy would have no problem with a 90 or so on final to pick up some speed.

'Accomplished' in my book is several 1000 jumps of sport swooping and tandems apiece, with a few hundred on the tandem canopy of choice. I'm all for being safe, but eventually you reach a point where it's just another parachute. Ditto with the rear risers, it's just another way to arrest your descent, and bleed off some speed.

Furthermore, I don't see a 90 toggle turn as being any different than the deep brakes to canopy surge that many TM's use for extra speed.

Lets remember that nobody is cranking a front riser 450 with a tandem. I'm not even sure it's possible.

[rhino 0]

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That's very judgemental especially from someone who isn't a tandem instructor. But why stop there? Why not say that all tandem skydiving is wrong. The instructor may appreciate the risk but the student doesn't. Skydiving is unnecessary and reckless.

I said swooping a tandem passenger is wrong.. You can take the rest of that bullshit and walk with it. Don't put words in my mouth.

Rhino

[Fledgling 0]

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There is no justifiable reason to increase the risk factor by trying to swoop tandem landings

Agreed. But there is a point at which you're not 'trying' anything, you're just doing it. An accomplished canopy pilot, who is also an accomplished TM, who has sufficent experience on a certain model of tandem canopy would have no problem with a 90 or so on final to pick up some speed.

'Accomplished' in my book is several 1000 jumps of sport swooping and tandems apiece, with a few hundred on the tandem canopy of choice. I'm all for being safe, but eventually you reach a point where it's just another parachute. Ditto with the rear risers, it's just another way to arrest your descent, and bleed off some speed.

Furthermore, I don't see a 90 toggle turn as being any different than the deep brakes to canopy surge that many TM's use for extra speed.

Lets remember that nobody is cranking a front riser 450 with a tandem. I'm not even sure it's possible.

You could be the best swooper in the world and the best tandem master in the world and it ain't going to save you the day you come screaming in to land and your passenger puts their feet down.

[nicknitro71 0]

If I can't hook it, I ain't jumping it!

Lov the pic, thanks to all for the needed laughs!

Memento Audere Semper

903

[verticalflyer 11]

Just one general point not aimed at anbody, but does a tandem student need to be hooked in? Is the freefall and ride not enough.

I love to swoop but would not do so with someone, what if they decide to freak half through, shift in harness or helpfully grapp your arm, a riser, brake line etc etc

Is it really necessary when they just had the ride of their life to risk theirs and yours,

Of course a lot of tandem masters probably need to swoop to maintain currency on swooping since they dont do enough sport jumps anymore

Dont just talk about it, Do it!

[raymod2 1]

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I said swooping a tandem passenger is wrong.. You can take the rest of that bullshit and walk with it. Don't put words in my mouth.

Perhaps someone who thinks you can't swoop a Sabre shouldn't be telling tandem instructors how to fly their parachutes.

[AggieDave 6]

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Just one general point not aimed at anbody, but does a tandem student need to be hooked in? Is the freefall and ride not enough.

By no means will I say that I "hook" students and I do not rear riser tandems (although I use rears while swooping on my sport rig), but I do use a "stall/surge" approach or during warm days a gental carving turn (damn thermals, I've gained over 50' before at my DZ on a tandem going into deep brakes setting up for the surge). The little bit of speed gives me a lot more to put my tandem on their feet safely. I do this when I'm jumping any of the tandem canopies that I jump regularly. Icarus, Sigma and EZ (and the A2 for a bit a while back).


Obviously that's just works for me, what will work for another TI may be something completely different.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AiRpollUtiOn 0]

The stall/surge propably doesn't have much less auch-potential as a hook-approach on a tandem. Both will result in pain when executed too low, but the extra speed generated by both when executed properly overall results in a more comfortable landing.

(All of the above based on what I've been watching for the past 3 years while doing tandemvideo's)

"Don't make me come down there" - God.

My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html
Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio

[rhino 0]

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Perhaps someone who thinks you can't swoop a Sabre shouldn't be telling tandem instructors how to fly their parachutes.

You seem to have a problem.. You weren't breast fed were you? poor child..

I said swooping with a student is wrong. No where in there did I tell someone how to fly their parachute.

This is the last time I will ever waste a keystroke responding to you..

[diablopilot 2]

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I said swooping with a student is wrong.

If the instructor has the skill to do it safely and it produces a better more comfortable langing, how then is it any more or less unsafe than jumping out of a plane with said student?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[shaggio 0]

Its wrong because 98% of the tandem passengers do not know the risk's involved in swooping, much less it looks like he is running a swoop course.

Hey, I love fly my canopy to the best of my ability. I love to push myself further. I love trying to run gates. But the fact is that if I screw up its MY OWN ass not someone else's too. Do you think that this cute little tandem passenger has any clue the TM is pushing HIMSELF on the jump? Hey, even if this guy is the best in the world, what about the TM that see's this, tries it and femurs or worse both himself and the tandem passenger?

The fact is that if your doing Tandems and its getting to be just another jump, IT IS STILL THE FIRST JUMP and possibly the most exciting thing the student has ever done. Give them a break and play it safe. Dont break them!!!!