Viking 0 #1 January 4, 2006 at the eloy boogie I had the chance to test out a Lotus 190 loaded at 1.1:1 When i was up high i whipped out a couple front riser turns to see how much altitude it would eat up. On the 90 I lost 250 feet, and 500 feet on the 180. I was told that can't be right. So i ask you, what canopy do you jump, at what wingloading, and how many feet do you loose in these two turns?I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #2 January 4, 2006 It's not as simple as how much altitude will you lose on a 90 or a 180. A lot will depend on the turn rate. A quick snappy turn will not lose as much altitude as a slow carving turn (likely what you did on your 180). But the quick snappy turn is harder to be precise and it also adds less time to evaluate and correct for any mistakes you may be making. The secret is to do a lot of experimenting up high and to attempt to keep your turn rates fairly consistent first before you start varying your turn rates. Learn the performance envelop of your canopy before you bring it low to the ground. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sabre1Lucke 0 #3 January 4, 2006 This is a tricky question. It depends on how you do your turn. If you do a slow carving 180° you will lose more altitude then on a fast aggressive turn. But then again, you will have more time in that slow carving turn and it is much saver in my opinion. On my Sabre 135 loaded at 1.47 I started my 180° at 420-440ft. But on an aggressive turn it was 380ft. On my present canopy, a Demon 100 loaded at 2.0 I have to start much higher but I'm still searching for the right altitude. (I don't have that much jumps on this canopy) In each case it will not be below 500ft Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spoons 0 #4 January 4, 2006 On my sabre2 135, loaded at about 1.5 (thanks to a heavy christmas diet ) a 90 degree turn uses up about 370ft - I thought that was a fair chunk but I've tried a few times at altitude and it comes out more or less the same every time...it's not a ridiculously slow turn either, taking only 2-3 seconds for the turn. This seems quite different from your sabre 135, once the temperature gets back up above -20 degrees celcius i'll do some more high hop n pops and work out what the 180s loose Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yardhippie 0 #5 January 4, 2006 Different makes/models/sizes will use different amounts of altitude. Then add your style of turn (ie. slow carve, snappy, etc) and the amounts will vary even more. With my canopy I can whip out a 180 and burn only a few hundred feet (300-400) OR and do a nice slow carve and use up about 500-600. So, there really isnt a definitive answer to your question. IMHO.Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Viking 0 #6 January 4, 2006 Quote So, there really isnt a definitive answer to your question. IMHO. why not? you just gave a definitive answer for what your canopy does in both slow carves and snappy turns.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #7 January 4, 2006 That sounds like alot of altitude on a canopy at 1.1:1. How high were you? You'll lose more alti the higher you are. Or, how high were you? You'll misread your alti if you are too stoned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Brains 2 #8 January 4, 2006 QuoteOr, how high were you? You'll misread your alti if you are too stoned. Whoa! while i won't go that far because i have met Viking, i will agree that 500 feet on a 1:1 loaded canopy seems a bit much for a 180. Dave is right however that you will loose more altitude the higher up you are. Since you were at Eloy during the boogie, i am going to assume you were not pulling above 3500 feet. I would suggest doing many more of these turns, on different canopies to get a better feel for it. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yardhippie 0 #9 January 4, 2006 QuoteQuote So, there really isnt a definitive answer to your question. IMHO. why not? you just gave a definitive answer for what your canopy does in both slow carves and snappy turns. Touche'. I have found that other variables too affect my canopy. Density altitude, etc. My reasoning for saying that there isnt a definitive answer is that there are too many scenarios where a certain canopy will act differently to have a helpful discussion. So, I touched on my experince and left it at that. and now finally gettin to my point: I belive that there is no solid answer, and I didnt want those who may be just learning and/or lurking in this forum to read 'x' is the perfect altitude for 'x' degrees of turn.Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #10 January 4, 2006 The other thing is, altitude loss in a turn doesn't increase mathmaticaly along with the increase in degree of turn. if this were true, you'd have to start a 1080 at 2000ft. In reality, it's less than half of that. I'm not saying it's not possible to double the alti loss from a 90 with a 180, but the turns would have to be radically different. If you used similar techniques for both turns, something is off. I would guess if I was at 1.1:1, and wanted to do a 180, I'd be looking at turning a 200ft. Maybe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sabre1Lucke 0 #11 January 4, 2006 If you want you can see one of my first frontriser landings with my Sabre 135. It's from one year ago. It's certainly not a perfect landing. It was a 90° turn whitch I started at 380ft. You can say that this is a slow carving turn I think here is the link: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2400&string=Sabre%20135 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #12 January 4, 2006 QuoteWhen i was up high i whipped out a couple front riser turns How "whippy" where all the turns? Where they identical in all respect except 90 vs 180?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AdD 1 #13 January 4, 2006 Stiletto 150, 1.3 wl 90 degree carve - 250' 180 - 350-400'Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #14 January 4, 2006 QuoteWhen i was up high... This is the important part. You'll lose a lot more altitude in a turn up high than you will down low. You'll also have lower riser pressure up high than down low, too. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Viking 0 #15 January 4, 2006 Quote That sounds like alot of altitude on a canopy at 1.1:1. How high were you? You'll lose more alti the higher you are. Or, how high were you? You'll misread your alti if you are too stoned. I was doing these between 9-7 grand. as to the second high................never have, never will.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Viking 0 #16 January 4, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhen i was up high i whipped out a couple front riser turns How "whippy" where all the turns? Where they identical in all respect except 90 vs 180? Ya i pulled the riser down firmly and I tried to keep the turns identical but it was tough keeping the riser down towards the tail end of that 180.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #17 January 4, 2006 QuoteYa i pulled the riser down firmly and I tried to keep the turns identical but it was tough keeping the riser down towards the tail end of that 180. Even small canopies load up. I can't just pull down on my risers of my Velo 103 expecting that I'll be able to hold it indefinitely. This is normal and all part of the process of learning the performance envelop of the canopy. Plus don't worry about all this talk of "you lose more altitude the higher up you are". We know that the air is thinner up top so this is normal and helps build a small safety buffer into your start altitudes once you bring it down closer to the ground. It's good to know what altitudes to start your turn at, but it's more important to build that sight picture of knowing when to get off of the risers and give your canopy time to recover. Swooping rocks, but it's unforgiving of the errors that we can make and there are no short cuts if you want to do it reasonably safer than the uneducated. It takes many many many jumps of learning the performance envelop and building your sight picture. Good luck ... be smart ... be safe ... don't hurt yourself (and this applies to each and every one of us). Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #18 January 4, 2006 Thats pretty high, and you might get a little extra dive, but it still sounds like too much for that size and loading. Maybe you were in a vortex of time and space. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #19 January 4, 2006 Yeah, I'm jumping a Sam 120 signature series loaded 1.5-1.6 and 500'+ agl is generally where I initiate a 180 riser turn."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cacophony 0 #20 January 4, 2006 Personally I can do a 180 from anywhere between 400' and 600' with my Velo 96 at 2.05. Depends on how ballsy I am at the time, and how bad I want the turn, heh. I've done 270s with a Stiletto 135 from 350' give or take and still came out high. Its because I was nervous as hell and cranked it around really fast. Plus, a Stiletto is much different than a Velocity. It recovers way faster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Viking 0 #21 January 5, 2006 see thats why I'm asking this question b/c the Lotus is trimmed steaper than a Sabre2 but not as steep as a Sam, or CF2I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites YISkyDive 0 #22 January 5, 2006 This maybe somewhat silly to ask- but do you have a neptune to check the numbers you think you got? On my diablo I dont loose nearly that much alititude in turns- but I also have never monitored my turns at 7 to 9K. Still- it Seems like a lot. If you can get to a computer downloand your neptune graph with w/ paralog and analyzie it. Obviously if you dont have a neptune/ paralog/ RF port on your PC.. than my advice is useless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Viking 0 #23 January 5, 2006 nope no neptune. I just tracked my altitude by looking at my altimaster right as i started the turn and then again when it sounded like i have returned to full flight.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #24 January 5, 2006 Arthur, you are on the right track with your thinking, but working out those altitudes with a Neptune will give you more precise numbers. I don't know how many times I have posted this, but it's a lot. Search this forum for "four second rule" and see if you can find it. Ultimately, what that talks about is how to practice whatever degree of turn you wish to employ the same way, every single time, and what altitude you can expect to lose. Averaging that out on on a hop and pop (or several) will give you a safe inititation altitude (plus a small buffer) for throwing turns for landing. PM me if you cannot find the post. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Viking 0 #25 January 5, 2006 chuck as usual you kick ass. I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
yardhippie 0 #5 January 4, 2006 Different makes/models/sizes will use different amounts of altitude. Then add your style of turn (ie. slow carve, snappy, etc) and the amounts will vary even more. With my canopy I can whip out a 180 and burn only a few hundred feet (300-400) OR and do a nice slow carve and use up about 500-600. So, there really isnt a definitive answer to your question. IMHO.Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #6 January 4, 2006 Quote So, there really isnt a definitive answer to your question. IMHO. why not? you just gave a definitive answer for what your canopy does in both slow carves and snappy turns.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #7 January 4, 2006 That sounds like alot of altitude on a canopy at 1.1:1. How high were you? You'll lose more alti the higher you are. Or, how high were you? You'll misread your alti if you are too stoned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #8 January 4, 2006 QuoteOr, how high were you? You'll misread your alti if you are too stoned. Whoa! while i won't go that far because i have met Viking, i will agree that 500 feet on a 1:1 loaded canopy seems a bit much for a 180. Dave is right however that you will loose more altitude the higher up you are. Since you were at Eloy during the boogie, i am going to assume you were not pulling above 3500 feet. I would suggest doing many more of these turns, on different canopies to get a better feel for it. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yardhippie 0 #9 January 4, 2006 QuoteQuote So, there really isnt a definitive answer to your question. IMHO. why not? you just gave a definitive answer for what your canopy does in both slow carves and snappy turns. Touche'. I have found that other variables too affect my canopy. Density altitude, etc. My reasoning for saying that there isnt a definitive answer is that there are too many scenarios where a certain canopy will act differently to have a helpful discussion. So, I touched on my experince and left it at that. and now finally gettin to my point: I belive that there is no solid answer, and I didnt want those who may be just learning and/or lurking in this forum to read 'x' is the perfect altitude for 'x' degrees of turn.Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #10 January 4, 2006 The other thing is, altitude loss in a turn doesn't increase mathmaticaly along with the increase in degree of turn. if this were true, you'd have to start a 1080 at 2000ft. In reality, it's less than half of that. I'm not saying it's not possible to double the alti loss from a 90 with a 180, but the turns would have to be radically different. If you used similar techniques for both turns, something is off. I would guess if I was at 1.1:1, and wanted to do a 180, I'd be looking at turning a 200ft. Maybe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sabre1Lucke 0 #11 January 4, 2006 If you want you can see one of my first frontriser landings with my Sabre 135. It's from one year ago. It's certainly not a perfect landing. It was a 90° turn whitch I started at 380ft. You can say that this is a slow carving turn I think here is the link: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2400&string=Sabre%20135 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #12 January 4, 2006 QuoteWhen i was up high i whipped out a couple front riser turns How "whippy" where all the turns? Where they identical in all respect except 90 vs 180?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #13 January 4, 2006 Stiletto 150, 1.3 wl 90 degree carve - 250' 180 - 350-400'Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #14 January 4, 2006 QuoteWhen i was up high... This is the important part. You'll lose a lot more altitude in a turn up high than you will down low. You'll also have lower riser pressure up high than down low, too. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #15 January 4, 2006 Quote That sounds like alot of altitude on a canopy at 1.1:1. How high were you? You'll lose more alti the higher you are. Or, how high were you? You'll misread your alti if you are too stoned. I was doing these between 9-7 grand. as to the second high................never have, never will.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #16 January 4, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhen i was up high i whipped out a couple front riser turns How "whippy" where all the turns? Where they identical in all respect except 90 vs 180? Ya i pulled the riser down firmly and I tried to keep the turns identical but it was tough keeping the riser down towards the tail end of that 180.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #17 January 4, 2006 QuoteYa i pulled the riser down firmly and I tried to keep the turns identical but it was tough keeping the riser down towards the tail end of that 180. Even small canopies load up. I can't just pull down on my risers of my Velo 103 expecting that I'll be able to hold it indefinitely. This is normal and all part of the process of learning the performance envelop of the canopy. Plus don't worry about all this talk of "you lose more altitude the higher up you are". We know that the air is thinner up top so this is normal and helps build a small safety buffer into your start altitudes once you bring it down closer to the ground. It's good to know what altitudes to start your turn at, but it's more important to build that sight picture of knowing when to get off of the risers and give your canopy time to recover. Swooping rocks, but it's unforgiving of the errors that we can make and there are no short cuts if you want to do it reasonably safer than the uneducated. It takes many many many jumps of learning the performance envelop and building your sight picture. Good luck ... be smart ... be safe ... don't hurt yourself (and this applies to each and every one of us). Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #18 January 4, 2006 Thats pretty high, and you might get a little extra dive, but it still sounds like too much for that size and loading. Maybe you were in a vortex of time and space. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #19 January 4, 2006 Yeah, I'm jumping a Sam 120 signature series loaded 1.5-1.6 and 500'+ agl is generally where I initiate a 180 riser turn."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cacophony 0 #20 January 4, 2006 Personally I can do a 180 from anywhere between 400' and 600' with my Velo 96 at 2.05. Depends on how ballsy I am at the time, and how bad I want the turn, heh. I've done 270s with a Stiletto 135 from 350' give or take and still came out high. Its because I was nervous as hell and cranked it around really fast. Plus, a Stiletto is much different than a Velocity. It recovers way faster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #21 January 5, 2006 see thats why I'm asking this question b/c the Lotus is trimmed steaper than a Sabre2 but not as steep as a Sam, or CF2I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YISkyDive 0 #22 January 5, 2006 This maybe somewhat silly to ask- but do you have a neptune to check the numbers you think you got? On my diablo I dont loose nearly that much alititude in turns- but I also have never monitored my turns at 7 to 9K. Still- it Seems like a lot. If you can get to a computer downloand your neptune graph with w/ paralog and analyzie it. Obviously if you dont have a neptune/ paralog/ RF port on your PC.. than my advice is useless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #23 January 5, 2006 nope no neptune. I just tracked my altitude by looking at my altimaster right as i started the turn and then again when it sounded like i have returned to full flight.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #24 January 5, 2006 Arthur, you are on the right track with your thinking, but working out those altitudes with a Neptune will give you more precise numbers. I don't know how many times I have posted this, but it's a lot. Search this forum for "four second rule" and see if you can find it. Ultimately, what that talks about is how to practice whatever degree of turn you wish to employ the same way, every single time, and what altitude you can expect to lose. Averaging that out on on a hop and pop (or several) will give you a safe inititation altitude (plus a small buffer) for throwing turns for landing. PM me if you cannot find the post. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #25 January 5, 2006 chuck as usual you kick ass. I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
