Dr.Freedom 0 #1 February 15, 2006 Canopy choices which really is the smarter way to go? Jumpers with 100-400 jumps look up to swoopers and want to become one. Is it safer for them to take the usual progression, square @ 1.1 semi elliptical 1.4 elliptical 1.6 after that up to them? Or would it be safer to go square 1.1 to full elliptical 1.3 to full elliptical 1.6 and so on.... I feel that it is safer to go full elliptical with a lighter wing loading to start to learn the flight charicteristics instead of learning a semi and than learning a full. Thoughts? aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #2 February 15, 2006 I feel that it is safer to go full elliptical with a lighter wing loading to start to learn the flight charicteristics instead of learning a semi and than learning a full. While we are all entitled to our own opinions, I feel that this is not the safest mode of learning. Ellipticallity should have no bearing on how a canopy "swoops". A swoop is a byproduct of speed carried over from approach to plane out. Any canopy will swoop given enough speed. You don't need a crossfire or katana to swoop. A sabre will do it just fine. As far as a progression goes, everyone is going to tell you something different, and people with low experience wanting to go fast are going to look around until they find some one who will tell them it's OK to do so. Oh well, but that's the way it goes. I would not put people who are relatively in-experienced on elliptical canopies, as they have a few draw backs that are not condusive to learning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr.Freedom 0 #3 February 15, 2006 sO many views so little replies. aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #4 February 16, 2006 dude you can swoop the balls out of a sabre2 so stop thinking you need an elliptical to swoop... I have seen people on sabre 2's outswoop people on crossfire2s based on ability to fly a canopy...why dont you stop looking for someone to tell you it is allright to jump a canopy you are just not ready for and learn to swoop on a sabre 2 or safire 2 I think just about anyone with sanity will tell you that is a good idea... Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YISkyDive 0 #5 February 16, 2006 I dont think hes talking about swooping as much as flying. Being a jumper that took the elip. at lower jump numbers- I liked my decision. I learned lots about harness, lots about performance flight, and a lot about flat turns. I had A Lot of help though- and once I jumped an Xfire2 and found it to perform less in terms of turn speed at a size smaller- I was shocked at how 'aggressive' of a decision I made. The problem with the high performance at a light loading is that it still does amplify mistakes- and if you are not on top of your game that you do increase the chance of getting hurt. I was able to jump the elipticall at 170ish, but only because I also did 250 jumps 220 of those being April to September. Luck probabally played in there too- but I was challeged with two of my most dangerous situtations within 10 jumps of downsizing.. irony. A canopy headon at 80 ft and an out landing are challenging any day- but On a high performance canopy they can be even more dangerous because of the altitude lost in a turn. The eliptical does have a lot of ability to teach- again, I learned a lot about my harness on a 170 that now when I try on a sabre2 I dont even get a partial affect... but at the same time there where 3 cases I can think of that If I did not use a flat turn that was decided in under a second I would more than likely not be typing this. Shit does happen up there- and we need to manage the risk- going sabre2 is by no means a bad decision and on the same size sabre2 as my diablo I will swoop further, easier, in a heart beat.... but thats why I have liked my Diablo- it has taught[teaches still] me to use every little bit of efficeny. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #6 February 16, 2006 QuotesO many views so little replies. Hey AJ ... Steve here ... we met last Saturday at Pitt (I was the guy with the new JVX). I'm not sure how much I'll be around at Pitt this season since I really like to pull high when learning to fly my canopies and well we know we can't do that at Pitt (plus as long as I can afford it, I will be travelling to different swoop competitions this season). But I do believe that I'll be at Pitt again this weekend if the WX is nice (which it looks like it will be) and we can pick up from where we left off. But please remember some of he things I told you: I have no problems with guys like you wanting to become a swooper. But it won't happen overnight. There are no short cuts to becoming a good swooper. Becoming a good swooper takes hundreds and hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands) of jumps and it's important to dedicate time towards canopy control and not worry as much about the freefall aspects. I'm not telling you to give up on freefall. But if you're serious about becoming a swooper, you will dedicate jumps towards nothing but canopy control. You need to learn the performance envelop of your canopy up high before you bring it down low to the ground and you need to learn the slow flight characteristics of your canopy to get to your setup point before you induce speed low to the ground. And while we briefly talked about some of this this, I can talk to you more about the drills to do up high to learn the performance envelop (I some how don't think I did a good job explaining everything). Also, remember that you need to let the canopy progress through it's natural recovery arc once you get off of the front risers. I'd much rather see you come out high than see you dig yourself out of the corner. Not only is the corner a dangerous place to be, but it's also causes you to bleed off a lot of speed and not very productive towards a good swoop. I've managed to make it to 1300+ jumps without any serious injuries (knock on wood ... I've had my close calls), but I did make mistakes and it would be nice to see others not make the same minor mistakes I made (I used to live in the corner without knowing what this really meant) and of course nobody wants to see anyone make the major mistakes which can land you in the emergency ward ... or worse the morge. I don't think I'm comfortable with being a "mentor" as I'm not all that experienced compared to the bad asses of the world. But I am very happy to talk to you about swooping. I mean after all, swooping is one of my passions. However, I do think we need to talk more about fundamentals of canopy flight as we didn't really talk much about this last weekend and I would like to know more about your knowledge in this area before I start telling you about the more advanced topics. Remember I'm cool with the idea of you wanting to be a swooper. But there are no short cuts towards this goal. You're young and you have your whole life ahead of you towards becoming a bad ass swooper. Play smart and be safe ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #7 February 16, 2006 QuotesO many views so little replies. That's 'cause many of us reading don't feel we have the experience to offer advice on this topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr.Freedom 0 #8 February 16, 2006 I feel that you must have missed what I was actually going for. I am not looking to hear that it is ok to fly the elliptical lets face it I make my own decisions. I am looking for is the pros and cons of each of my ideas to get better... semi to full or full to full. I too understand that canopy pilots should not make their decisions based on finances however here in the real world my ass is broke and wanting to get better so my next canopy is going to be with me for a long time and the thing is going to cost a forturne as it does I am meirly just looking to see what is a better investment. So Thank you to all that do post with information, information helping my self and others that will be, are in my shoes thinking the same way as I, come to our decision. aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #9 February 16, 2006 I prefer wings that are not so eliptical. I just dont like the dancing opening's and such. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #10 February 16, 2006 Fuckin potheads Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #11 February 16, 2006 Quotein the real world my ass is broke and wanting to get better so my next canopy is going to be with me for a long time This is the worst resason ever to pick a canopy. If you want to be a swooper, get that idea out of your head ASAP. You need to be selecting very specific canopy types and sizes during your progression, all in relation to your current skill level, and money has nothing to do with it. Any canopy you need can be bought used, and for a scope of prices depending on the condition. Any canopy you currently have can be sold for most of the cost (if not more) than the next canopy you need. There are two problems with this plan: 1. You can't quickly find the canopy you want used. 2. You can't sell your canopy quicly when you want to switch. The end result of both problems are that you end up flying what you have longer, which is the best thing you could ever do. You will want to switch canopies too soon, and you won't know as much as you think you know about your current wing when you're ready to switch. Jumping it more will only help you. Now that your equipment problems are solved, let em say this. Some have advised that you need to do high pulls and spend extra time under canopy. This is good advice, BUT, you need to realize that one jump equals one landing. Period. I don't care if every jump you make is a 13k hop n pop from now on, if you put 100 jumps on a canopy, thats 100 landings. Time under canopy is a good thing, but it won't make a swooper any faster than pulling at 3k. Nothing will. It will make you a better swooper when you build up the jump numbers, but it will not get you there in fewer jumps. Some guys get this attitude, where they decide they want to be a swooper, and they buy the pants, and do the high pulls, and think they are in. Not so. I don't care who you are, without the jumps, you're just fooling yourslef (nobody else is fooled). I'm not trying to discourgae you, I'm hoping to encourage you to do what many other swooping hopefulls don't do, which is deal with reality. The reality is that becoming a swooper is a project that will take many years, and alot of money, but it is worth it. As for your question, buy a canopy that makes sense for your current experience. Don't plan ahead for what might happen, plan for today, and the fact that you will be jumping the canopy today. Put at least 300 jumps on every canopy you buy. Any less, and you're cheating yourself out of learning. You'll spend some time, maybe 50 jumps, getting up to speed on a new canopy, and any less than 250 jumps, and you'll sell the canopy only knowing a small fraction of what the canopy can do. Get a canopy thats smart for you today. Put soem jump on it, than add a few points to your WL with a smaller size of the same wing. Keep this up untill you're in the 1.6 to 1.7 range, than switch over to the Crossfire/Katana class, and plan on going through 2 of those. The first will be either no increase in Wl or a very small increase, the second will get you close to 2.0. Do a few hundred on that wing, and then you can do whatever you want. Most likely a crossbarce and 2.0 or above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #12 February 16, 2006 QuoteGet a canopy thats smart for you today. Put soem jump on it, than add a few points to your WL with a smaller size of the same wing. Keep this up untill you're in the 1.6 to 1.7 range, than switch over to the Crossfire/Katana class, and plan on going through 2 of those. The first will be either no increase in Wl or a very small increase, the second will get you close to 2.0. Do a few hundred on that wing, and then you can do whatever you want. Most likely a crossbarce and 2.0 or above. Nicely put... Dhttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #13 February 16, 2006 Quote Fuckin potheads hahaha Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #14 February 16, 2006 although i went elliptical very early, and don't have a problem with someone heads up going under a big wing and learning i totally agree with dave and have told you as much regarding the $$ of swooping. you need to find the right thing for you at the time regardless of cost and this swooping game is not a cheap one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #15 February 16, 2006 Dude, Just out of curiosity and I usually try to stay away from mindless threads but, why are you so stuck up on ellipticity? Do you know that many, if not all, X-braced canopies are less elliptical than HP conventional 9 cell? Ellipticity is only one factor and by itself cannot tell you anything about a canopy. You got things that matter more like trim, line length, line attachment placement, and thus far.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #16 February 16, 2006 he is more focused on platform. sabre2 vs xfire. is ellipticity a word? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr.Freedom 0 #17 February 16, 2006 So are you saying that it would be better to never even jump a fully eliptical canopy? So it should be: Square 1.1 to Semi 1.4 to Semi 1.6 to Semi 1.8 to Xbrace 2.0 ? aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #18 February 16, 2006 Quotehe is more focused on platform. sabre2 vs xfire. Okay let's forget that AJ asked this question and pretend that someone else asked it. Having owned and flown a Sabre2 190, a Sabre2 170, a Crossfire2 139 and a Crossfire2 119, I'll bite on this one. First off we know that Sabre2s are awesome canopies which can easily be swooped by any competent canopy pilot (remembering it's the pilot and not the canopy). But we on these forms have debated this topic on numerous occasions. What is safer? The canopy with a shorter recovery arc (Sabre2) or the longer recovery arc (Crossfire2) and unless I'm mistaken, the consensus was that there is more time to react to things on the canopy with the longer recovery arc. So which one is better for the (shall I say intermediate) canopy pilot with swooping aspirations? My guess is the Crossfire2 is better. But we're all different and what might work for one canopy pilot may not work for another. I still think based on his current experience level that AJ would be better off on a Sabre2 150. But will he really be better off? I don't know him that well and I've only seen one of his landings. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swoopster33 0 #19 February 16, 2006 There is no "cut and dry" formula at work here. It's not the canopy nearly as much as it is who is under it. Work on the fundamentals, work on technique, GET COACHING. Don't get in a race to get the best swooping canopy. That race usually ends in a bad way. Listen to steve, he has some good advice. It sounds like he is in the same place you are. Listen to the advice you have recieved here, it was given to you for a reason! If i can give you any advice at all, GET COACHING. Get in a flight 1 course. Learn about the wing you are jumping, learn the basics before you ever start thinking about what "swooping" wing to buy. JT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #20 February 16, 2006 ^ this guy also has a clue. i mean, sometimes his judgement is off a little /tease JT - but smart. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr.Freedom 0 #21 February 16, 2006 You right Steve this type of thing has been discussed all over the place however this is taking a different root on everything that I have been able to find... this is the information that I could not find. Thank your for taking me out of the conversation as this isnt so much the "can i fly this" forum it is more educational for the crowd of people like my self than just myself. aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swoopster33 0 #22 February 16, 2006 Rob wrote "sometimes his judgement is off a little /tease JT" What are you talking about, i never have bad judgement, and could someone please tell my why my ribs hurt so much when i cough :-) Peace... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntacfreefly 0 #24 February 16, 2006 QuoteWhat is safer? The canopy with a shorter recovery arc (Sabre2) or the longer recovery arc (Crossfire2) and unless I'm mistaken, the consensus was that there is more time to react to things on the canopy with the longer recovery arc. I'm all for longer recovery arc BUT by your logic the Velocity (one of the longest divers out there) would be the best choice. Obviously this is not the case. Personally I do not consider the Sabre2 to have a short arc, the Stiletto yes but not the Sabre2. Sure it's shorter than a Katana or XF2 but those are shorter than the Xbraces. When talking about long recovery arcs we should preface that by REASONABLE amount of recovery arc. Which choice is appropriate is a question best answered by the level of pilot flying the wing and the loading thereof. The XF2 is more suitable for advanced pilots IMO, not 'the (shall I say intermediate) canopy pilot with swooping aspirations'. To the original poster. I would consider the performance category of the canopy before I would consider whether or not it's elliptical. As mentioned prior there is simply so much more than that. IMO Intermediate canopies (loaded light to moderate): Sabre2 Pilot Saphire2 (? never jumped one) Lotus (? never jumped one) Advanced/High Canopies (any loading) Sabre2 (loaded heavily) Samurai Vengence Katana XF2 Mamba Stiletto (just for JT - but I hate these things!!) Ultra Canopies Any X-brace currently out there. I would recommend that people spend as much time as they can on the first table. It'll only help them in the long run if they pay attention and practice appropriately. Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swoopster33 0 #25 February 16, 2006 Ian, I would throw the Stellito into your advanced catagory. There are still a lot of them out there and they still have a pretty stong following. BTW, couldn't agree with you more. Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
