superstu 0
vdschoor 0
Quotemark, also take notice of the 2 people i referenced to, jaymo and tagle. almost everyone else at the event who was doing the DWD and even in the distance record attempts had to use noticable rear riser input to get that pop up. so yes, i think the "pop up" thing can "just happen" however only if you're on your shit can it happen. most of the time you will have to give rear riser input to get it done. actually, i will go out on a limb and say you'll always have to do it, at least with the canopies we have now and with the speeds we're reaching right now.
edited to add: DON'T GET IN THE CORNER
This is what i heard as well... that's why I wrote my response the way I did..
raymod2 1
My two cents: a Velocity is trimmed pretty steeply so you need a LOT of speed to get it to climb on its own. I'm not saying it's impossible but I have never been able to do it.
I watched Jay Moledski attempt a dirt-water-dirt while I was in Colorado and he dragged his foot for a little while, popped up a bit (a couple of feet) and then came back down and dragged his foot again. I think it's safe to say that pop-up wasn't intentional but (1) it was nowhere near as high as the popup you see during distance attempts and (2) I imagine dragging your foot in the water unloads the canopy some and could be the primary cause of the unintentional popup.
I watched Jay Moledski attempt a dirt-water-dirt while I was in Colorado and he dragged his foot for a little while, popped up a bit (a couple of feet) and then came back down and dragged his foot again. I think it's safe to say that pop-up wasn't intentional but (1) it was nowhere near as high as the popup you see during distance attempts and (2) I imagine dragging your foot in the water unloads the canopy some and could be the primary cause of the unintentional popup.
Quotefor those people that were at the colorado meet or have watched video of it, what happened to taggle during the dirt-water-dirt portion? he popped up off the water even though he was trying to stay on the water. so in that case you can argue that it just happened or that maybe he miscalculated something ever so slightly and he popped up because he did or didn't do something. now when jaymo did the DWD he had to actually carve the 371' of water so that he could stay on the deck and not pop up. so maybe jaymo realized that the amount of speed he usually carried at colorado would make him pop up if he didn't do something about it, in this case he just carved to bleed off a little bit of speed.
Less suspended weight in the harness (touching water) can cause the canopy to climb because it is not carrying as much weight, this will cause the pilot to lift off the water, reload the wing and descend again. This is directly affected by the amount of airspeed. When we touch the water we all, often without realizing it, decrease out input to stay on. With enough airspeed just unloading the harness can be enough to lift the pilot off.
No fuel, simple physics.
Blues,
Ian
edit: Dan beat me to the unloading the harness answer.
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
Quotealmost everyone else at the event who was doing the DWD and even in the distance record attempts had to use noticable rear riser input to get that pop up.
Their rear riser input is most definitely noticable. Not always as aggressive as others, but it's there.
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
QuoteThat's my take on it as well. I swoop a "big" wing and if I let up on the front risers abruptly after putting it in a steep dive it definately climbs without any control input.
Different wings have different results. You can't apply a blanket statement. ST also level out and can climb quite easily with enough speed.
edit: Johnny explains this nicely 2 posts down.
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
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Quotemost of the time you will have to give rear riser input to get it done.
but then your taking away from the speed and distance.
Quoteanyway, strap on 20lbs of weight, fly to land in downwind situation, do the same setup you always do and fly like you always do,
Quoteyou will have to get in your rears a little more than you usually do, and your perception of speed is different so you give different controll inputs to make your recovery like it should be. then it happens, you pop up.
Well those 2 things dont exactly add up, do they. You either do what you normally do, or you dont. Pulling the rears more cause you are going downwind, its not the extra weight, you're pulling your rears more!
Are things more sensitive with more weight and faster speeds. absolutely. Does it mean the wing has to pop up? I'm calling shenanigans on this one. I saw Jay pop up a bit at the last pond swoop he was at here at The Ranch. He just went too heavy on the rears. People going faster had no problem staying on the water.
Popping up allows you to go farther than swooping flat over the ground does. This might have been discoverd by accident, but its has been used on purpose.
As to the original thought, keeping swoopers in the 5 ft course would have taken some weights out of play in distance either way, right?
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
Letting up abruptly can throw the suspended weight out in front of the canopy causing an increase in AOA. Being smoothe can stop this.
But a 9 cell and its trim is different than most cross braced canopies.
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
But a 9 cell and its trim is different than most cross braced canopies.
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
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Quotemark, also take notice of the 2 people i referenced to, jaymo and tagle. almost everyone else at the event who was doing the DWD and even in the distance record attempts had to use noticable rear riser input to get that pop up.
and the peeps that "were on there shit" went further. by it "just happening". you try to make it happen, it doesnt work.
funny thing is, not you stu. but I use this all the time, and im getting arguments from people who admittedly say that they "asked someone" thats how they know. so since I use this, and most of you have seen it. how come Im wrong and your write. thats not simple physics. thats simple logic.
believe what you want, if you want to learn this I will be more than willing to discuss this with anyone on the how and why, I dont need to ask someone, I already know. but If you think Im wrong then dont ask me, ask someone who you think knows.
the name calling thing just is stupid, Jay said this. Ian said this, so and so said this. well, I dont have anyone to quote and I wont. I figured this all out on my own. mostly by watching and learning and finding shit on accident. If you have to say "but they said this so your wrong" then you obviously don't know how this phenomena happens. and you definitely don't have the right "or knowledge" to tell me Im wrong. if you can come to me and argue a point without saying "jay told me" then we can talk. otherwise, go out and swoop and figure it out. and quit trying to tell me im wrong without the knowledge of how it does happen.
stu has hit the nail about right on the head with this. so go back and read his post's.
some of you amaze me on how much you rely on what others tell you.
ohh and paul. that earlier post wasnt directed at you, stupid quote thing.
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QuoteWell those 2 things dont exactly add up, do they. You either do what you normally do, or you dont. Pulling the rears more cause you are going downwind, its not the extra weight, you're pulling your rears more!
more weight, more pendulum.
if you do what you normally do in this curcumstance, then you have more swing futher forward wich puts you out front more.
call shenanigans... fine with me...
but no more info about this is coming from me, not because I want to hold anyone back. I just dont want to argue about it.
If you add more weight, than you cant exactly expect to do the same thing and get the same result.
Thats like saying you can double your wingloading and turn at the same altitude.
Stop your turn higher and start the plane out earlier, and I'll bet you can swoop straight and level.
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
Thats like saying you can double your wingloading and turn at the same altitude.
Stop your turn higher and start the plane out earlier, and I'll bet you can swoop straight and level.
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
Canuck 0
When I spoke with Jay about the pop up thing last August, he most definitely implied that it was a very intentional technique and related it to a long range rifle shot.
I suck at physics, but is it not a fact that anything will travel farther if it's thrust is directed at an upwards angle? I realize that several other factors come into play on this, like the drag of the canopy.
Canuck
I suck at physics, but is it not a fact that anything will travel farther if it's thrust is directed at an upwards angle? I realize that several other factors come into play on this, like the drag of the canopy.
Canuck
The more kinetic energy you have (weight) the further you will be able to "fly"
And with the increased stall speed of a heavily loaded wing, popping up allows you to go as far as you can.
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
And with the increased stall speed of a heavily loaded wing, popping up allows you to go as far as you can.
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
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Quotebut is it not a fact that anything will travel farther if it's thrust is directed at an upwards angle?
correct. thats why if you do it to much then it ruins the result..
you guys are way over analyzing this. you see any "physics major" winning swoop comps?
didn't tangle work for atari or some other software company, i bet he knows a thing or two about math and consequently physics
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QuoteStop your turn higher and start the plane out earlier, and I'll bet you can swoop straight and level.
correct. but you wont go as far, nor will you go as fast.
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Quotedidn't tangle work for atari or some other software company, i bet he knows a thing or two about math and consequently physics
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QuoteWhen I spoke with Jay about the pop up thing last August, he most definitely implied that it was a very intentional technique and related it to a long range rifle shot.
maybe jay will post on here and tell everyone about it then.
then again maybe he wont.
you should now ask him "how he does it".
edited to add: DON'T GET IN THE CORNER
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down
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