airborne82nd 0 #1 May 14, 2006 looking for the swoop canopy with the most docile in turns. some canopys are say like a diablo what a spinner and the aerodyne new mamba i mean its like going 60 miles an hour in a gocart tooooooooooo touchy you lean and your spinning. i know its a strange question but lookking for the swoop canopy which will not go crazy if you open with a couple line twist and the canopy with the less touchy controls as possible. of course easy front riser pressure and a canopy that will plane out on its own once the diving 270 is complete. ( i understand that some canopy require light rear riser to plane them out. i know this is a strange set of options for the canopy. mostly looking for the most non touchy non spinning swoop canopy. loading 1- 1.65 thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #2 May 14, 2006 Icarus X-Fire2. Demo one, you'll love it.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 May 14, 2006 Demo a Sabre2, a Pilot and a Safire2. All three of those canopies will really go the distance in the right hands and all three of those canopies are great all around canopies that open good and fly well.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #4 May 14, 2006 a canopy that will plane out on its own once the diving 270 is complete. Quote Pilot, with mine if I put it in a steep enough dive will plane out completely on its own and start to fly perfe3ctly level without any input.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #5 May 15, 2006 The Crossfire2 is much twitchier then the Safire , Sabre2, and Pilots. Try one of them and you'll probally find that they meet your needs a lot better then the more aggressive canopies like the Crossfire, the Mamba and a few othere do.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rwieder 0 #6 May 15, 2006 QuoteThe Crossfire2 is much twitchier then the Safire , Sabre2, and Pilots. Personally, i'm in dissagreement here. I've flown all of these canopies except the Pilot at wings of 1.1:1 to 2.0:1 The Sabre2 and the X-Fire2 are excellent canopies. I never noticed any "twitchyness" or other unexpected behavrioal charachteristics. That said, this is me, no one else. I found that the X-Fire2 is pretty much the best canopy i've flown besides the HeatWave. I really wished i had that canopy back.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites frenchyflyer 0 #7 May 15, 2006 Well I've also flown Sabre2s and Xfires in the 1.5 range wingloading and the Xfire felt definitely more twitchy than the Sabre2. I guess AggieDave's proposal is the best with a choice among the Sabre2, Pilot and Safire, these are good swooping canopies (hell, I still like to fly my Sabre2 for swooping) and are also really docile and thus a good choice for, say, wingsuit jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #8 May 15, 2006 I suggest to forget Pilot if you want to swoop. I fly mine ~WL 1.4. Its a fight to make it dive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Peej 0 #9 May 15, 2006 I'd go with Dave's advice and try out the Pilot, Safire 2 and Sabre 2. I've flown all of them and while i found the Pilot to be a lot of fun (a 150 loaded at around 1.4) and i didn't get to put many jumps on the Sabre 2 i did put a good few on a Safire 2 150. I also own a Safrire 135 loaded to around 1.7. Believe me at that loading she goes like hell! This weekend i had probably my best swoops out of it ever, plenty of speed and just a light tweak on the rears to bring it out of the dive. I'm doing long, slow 180 carves from about 500 feet. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #10 May 15, 2006 QuoteI suggest to forget Pilot if you want to swoop. I fly mine ~WL 1.4. Its a fight to make it dive. The pilot, safire2, and saber2 all dive just fine if you learn the right technique. You can swoop any canopy. That said, they all have a more positive recovery arc and that is probally a good thing for someone who is learning but it will make keeping the risers down a bit harder. I have 300 jumps on saber2s, 300 on saber 1s, and a good 30ish on my new crossfire 2 and imo, there is a significant difference between the saber style canopies and the xf2 when it comes to turns. Have a much higher chance of oversteer on the xf2 and it just turns a whole lot faster. Its not a bad canopy, in fact, its a great one! Just don't know it its quite what the poster is looking for.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #11 May 15, 2006 I gotta ask - are you still jumping a Triathalon at 1.2? If so, I'm not sure that swooping anything at 1.65 (which in itself is oddly specific) is a good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airborne82nd 0 #12 May 15, 2006 no tri-135 & sabre 2-135 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #13 May 15, 2006 Quotesabre 2-135 Thats your answer. Jump that thing as much as you can, and when it feels like part of you, sell it a get a smaller one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #14 May 15, 2006 QuoteI suggest to forget Pilot if you want to swoop. I fly mine ~WL 1.4. Its a fight to make it dive. With the right technique you can make it dive....just ask my titanium ankle....I had no idea what I was doing and I thought the same thing you did...until I dove it into the ground... technique technique technique oh yeah and a shitload of coaching.... Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vdschoor 0 #15 May 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteI suggest to forget Pilot if you want to swoop. I fly mine ~WL 1.4. Its a fight to make it dive. With the right technique you can make it dive....just ask my titanium ankle....I had no idea what I was doing and I thought the same thing you did...until I dove it into the ground... Very wise words, unfortunately from a hard lesson in this case. The pilot will dive, and will swoop just fine. I just don't think it's a canopy that you go to to advance your swooping. The reason I say this is the recovery arc of the parachute, the pilot has a shorter recovery arc (and I mean seriously shorter) than the Sabre2. Right now there are a couple of people in Byron that are ready to move on, they've been on Pilots so far, and we're transitioning them to Sabre2s I unfortunately cannot comment on the Xfire and the Safire, as I've never flown them and not read enough on them to sort of know what I am talking about, but I think that if your goal is to swoop, and to swoop better, faster, and all that. Stick to the Sabre2. I think Pilot -> Sabre2 -> Katana -> Velocity (if that is your end goal) is a very good path to go. The reason I left the Stiletto out of this one is the recovery arc as well, the Stiletto has a fairly short recovery arc compared to the Sabre2 (from my personal experience with the canopy.. if I'm wrong, please correct me) Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #16 May 15, 2006 QuoteThe pilot will dive, and will swoop just fine. I just don't think it's a canopy that you go to to advance your swooping. The reason I say this is the recovery arc of the parachute, the pilot has a shorter recovery arc (and I mean seriously shorter) than the Sabre2. I agree...sabre 2 is a much better learning canopy for swooping...shit I did most on my learning on two different ones...and now the crossfire... I like the Xfire 2 a lot I think it is a great all around canopy...not for the faint of heart though...so perhaps a sabre2 is the way to go for the author of this thread... cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #17 May 16, 2006 I'm using double fronts only. It really hard to make it dive except I play with breakes a bit and its really hard to keep it in dive after 6-7 seconds. Its flatten out in 3-4 seconds after I gently release front risers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #18 May 16, 2006 I know it is a bit of a drive...but Brian Germain is teaching a course in Norway, I definately found the pilot to have a positive recovery arc whihc is really good for your average everyday flier...you can get it to do things...but it definately takes work... see if you can get a demo Sabre2 150 I switched to one after jumping the Pilot and plowing myself into the ground on it.... Cheers Dave Date: 22.7.2006 Time: 8:30 AM - 8:30 PM Venue: Oestre Aera, Norway Location: Oestre Area, Norway Contact: Jan Erik: Didrik [didrik@fallskjerm.no] Description: General Theory and Practice Canopy Flight Course Directions: Email for directionshttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #19 May 16, 2006 Quotesee if you can get a demo Sabre2 150 I switched to one after jumping the Pilot and plowing myself into the ground on it.... Was it because you've flown a Pilot? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #20 May 16, 2006 QuoteI'm using double fronts only. It really hard to make it dive except I play with breakes a bit and its really hard to keep it in dive after 6-7 seconds. Its flatten out in 3-4 seconds after I gently release front risers. If this is what you are talking about, then that really doesn't qualify you to say how well it dives. The reason its hard to hold it in a dive is because it has built up so much speed you are no longer able to counteract the new level of lift force with your arm strength. The faster you go the more lift the canopy has and it makes it harder to hold a trim change (pulling risers down) Saying the pilot doesn't dive is a stretch if you having worked up to doing turns yet. Most canopys don't dive that much with double fronts. Some yeah, but not like doing turns. Less than a saber2 is one thing, but to write the canopy off completely is a big step. Pilots open much nicer than saber 2s (I still think its a great canopy). Though, that is just my opinion. I could be wrong.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #21 May 16, 2006 Read my words again. I have not written any canopy off. Every canopy is a compromise. If you wanna swoop you might find better canopies than Pilot. 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PhreeZone 20 #5 May 15, 2006 The Crossfire2 is much twitchier then the Safire , Sabre2, and Pilots. Try one of them and you'll probally find that they meet your needs a lot better then the more aggressive canopies like the Crossfire, the Mamba and a few othere do.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #6 May 15, 2006 QuoteThe Crossfire2 is much twitchier then the Safire , Sabre2, and Pilots. Personally, i'm in dissagreement here. I've flown all of these canopies except the Pilot at wings of 1.1:1 to 2.0:1 The Sabre2 and the X-Fire2 are excellent canopies. I never noticed any "twitchyness" or other unexpected behavrioal charachteristics. That said, this is me, no one else. I found that the X-Fire2 is pretty much the best canopy i've flown besides the HeatWave. I really wished i had that canopy back.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frenchyflyer 0 #7 May 15, 2006 Well I've also flown Sabre2s and Xfires in the 1.5 range wingloading and the Xfire felt definitely more twitchy than the Sabre2. I guess AggieDave's proposal is the best with a choice among the Sabre2, Pilot and Safire, these are good swooping canopies (hell, I still like to fly my Sabre2 for swooping) and are also really docile and thus a good choice for, say, wingsuit jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #8 May 15, 2006 I suggest to forget Pilot if you want to swoop. I fly mine ~WL 1.4. Its a fight to make it dive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #9 May 15, 2006 I'd go with Dave's advice and try out the Pilot, Safire 2 and Sabre 2. I've flown all of them and while i found the Pilot to be a lot of fun (a 150 loaded at around 1.4) and i didn't get to put many jumps on the Sabre 2 i did put a good few on a Safire 2 150. I also own a Safrire 135 loaded to around 1.7. Believe me at that loading she goes like hell! This weekend i had probably my best swoops out of it ever, plenty of speed and just a light tweak on the rears to bring it out of the dive. I'm doing long, slow 180 carves from about 500 feet. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #10 May 15, 2006 QuoteI suggest to forget Pilot if you want to swoop. I fly mine ~WL 1.4. Its a fight to make it dive. The pilot, safire2, and saber2 all dive just fine if you learn the right technique. You can swoop any canopy. That said, they all have a more positive recovery arc and that is probally a good thing for someone who is learning but it will make keeping the risers down a bit harder. I have 300 jumps on saber2s, 300 on saber 1s, and a good 30ish on my new crossfire 2 and imo, there is a significant difference between the saber style canopies and the xf2 when it comes to turns. Have a much higher chance of oversteer on the xf2 and it just turns a whole lot faster. Its not a bad canopy, in fact, its a great one! Just don't know it its quite what the poster is looking for.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #11 May 15, 2006 I gotta ask - are you still jumping a Triathalon at 1.2? If so, I'm not sure that swooping anything at 1.65 (which in itself is oddly specific) is a good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airborne82nd 0 #12 May 15, 2006 no tri-135 & sabre 2-135 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #13 May 15, 2006 Quotesabre 2-135 Thats your answer. Jump that thing as much as you can, and when it feels like part of you, sell it a get a smaller one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #14 May 15, 2006 QuoteI suggest to forget Pilot if you want to swoop. I fly mine ~WL 1.4. Its a fight to make it dive. With the right technique you can make it dive....just ask my titanium ankle....I had no idea what I was doing and I thought the same thing you did...until I dove it into the ground... technique technique technique oh yeah and a shitload of coaching.... Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vdschoor 0 #15 May 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteI suggest to forget Pilot if you want to swoop. I fly mine ~WL 1.4. Its a fight to make it dive. With the right technique you can make it dive....just ask my titanium ankle....I had no idea what I was doing and I thought the same thing you did...until I dove it into the ground... Very wise words, unfortunately from a hard lesson in this case. The pilot will dive, and will swoop just fine. I just don't think it's a canopy that you go to to advance your swooping. The reason I say this is the recovery arc of the parachute, the pilot has a shorter recovery arc (and I mean seriously shorter) than the Sabre2. Right now there are a couple of people in Byron that are ready to move on, they've been on Pilots so far, and we're transitioning them to Sabre2s I unfortunately cannot comment on the Xfire and the Safire, as I've never flown them and not read enough on them to sort of know what I am talking about, but I think that if your goal is to swoop, and to swoop better, faster, and all that. Stick to the Sabre2. I think Pilot -> Sabre2 -> Katana -> Velocity (if that is your end goal) is a very good path to go. The reason I left the Stiletto out of this one is the recovery arc as well, the Stiletto has a fairly short recovery arc compared to the Sabre2 (from my personal experience with the canopy.. if I'm wrong, please correct me) Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #16 May 15, 2006 QuoteThe pilot will dive, and will swoop just fine. I just don't think it's a canopy that you go to to advance your swooping. The reason I say this is the recovery arc of the parachute, the pilot has a shorter recovery arc (and I mean seriously shorter) than the Sabre2. I agree...sabre 2 is a much better learning canopy for swooping...shit I did most on my learning on two different ones...and now the crossfire... I like the Xfire 2 a lot I think it is a great all around canopy...not for the faint of heart though...so perhaps a sabre2 is the way to go for the author of this thread... cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #17 May 16, 2006 I'm using double fronts only. It really hard to make it dive except I play with breakes a bit and its really hard to keep it in dive after 6-7 seconds. Its flatten out in 3-4 seconds after I gently release front risers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #18 May 16, 2006 I know it is a bit of a drive...but Brian Germain is teaching a course in Norway, I definately found the pilot to have a positive recovery arc whihc is really good for your average everyday flier...you can get it to do things...but it definately takes work... see if you can get a demo Sabre2 150 I switched to one after jumping the Pilot and plowing myself into the ground on it.... Cheers Dave Date: 22.7.2006 Time: 8:30 AM - 8:30 PM Venue: Oestre Aera, Norway Location: Oestre Area, Norway Contact: Jan Erik: Didrik [didrik@fallskjerm.no] Description: General Theory and Practice Canopy Flight Course Directions: Email for directionshttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #19 May 16, 2006 Quotesee if you can get a demo Sabre2 150 I switched to one after jumping the Pilot and plowing myself into the ground on it.... Was it because you've flown a Pilot? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #20 May 16, 2006 QuoteI'm using double fronts only. It really hard to make it dive except I play with breakes a bit and its really hard to keep it in dive after 6-7 seconds. Its flatten out in 3-4 seconds after I gently release front risers. If this is what you are talking about, then that really doesn't qualify you to say how well it dives. The reason its hard to hold it in a dive is because it has built up so much speed you are no longer able to counteract the new level of lift force with your arm strength. The faster you go the more lift the canopy has and it makes it harder to hold a trim change (pulling risers down) Saying the pilot doesn't dive is a stretch if you having worked up to doing turns yet. Most canopys don't dive that much with double fronts. Some yeah, but not like doing turns. Less than a saber2 is one thing, but to write the canopy off completely is a big step. Pilots open much nicer than saber 2s (I still think its a great canopy). Though, that is just my opinion. I could be wrong.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #21 May 16, 2006 Read my words again. I have not written any canopy off. Every canopy is a compromise. If you wanna swoop you might find better canopies than Pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
