Canopy Choice

[Justlovesit 0]

I have been involved in skydiving for just over 5 months now and have never come across a sport where people feel it so necessary to pass on their opinion, whether it be right or wrong. I have now managed to clock up 182 jumps, which I must say I'm very pleased with.

On the advice of a number of experienced skydivers, I bought a Samurai 170 canopy, and have now done 138 jumps on it. It was a great canopy to begin with, but I've just started some fairly heavy front riser turns and have found that the recovery arc is quite shallow- I have read that this can lead me into a false sense of security. I have also found that the canopy is generally a little docile and I find it hard to be the first to land amongst the group I have been jumping with.

I have been told that (for my jumps numbers) I am quite talented. I guess my question is 'who decides on what canopy I should jump and on what grounds?'

In my opinion, some people are more capable of handling themselves than others and therefore advise over the Internet might not be the best way..............

As mentioned before, I weigh 145Ilbs........

[skykittykat 0]

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I guess my question is 'who decides on what canopy I should jump and on what grounds?'

Speak to the instructors who took you through your AFF or the S&TA peep at your dz - they will know what you are like as a canopy pilot and will be able to point you in the right direction and give you good advice.

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have also found that the canopy is generally a little docile and I find it hard to be the first to land amongst the group I have been jumping with.

Being the first to land should not be a priority. Flying and landing your canopy safely in a clear airspace is a must for EVERYONE.

Nobody is going to look down on you for not making it down first, but they will if you do something stupid - there is no kudos in screwing up and bouncing just to be the first down in a group.

There is one other question and that is, have you read the Brian Germain article on canopy flying and downsizing? On the canopy you are on at the moment, can you do all the things that Brian says you should be able to do before downsizing/changing types of canopies?

I hope you don't think I am being harsh.

Happy jumping!

Liz

[NWFlyer 2]

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and have never come across a sport where people feel it so necessary to pass on their opinion, whether it be right or wrong.

Five months? How are you so sure who's right and who's wrong?

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I guess my question is 'who decides on what canopy I should jump and on what grounds?'

Depends.... where do you live? I know some countries' regulatory bodies have specific wingloading requirements and since I don't live there I won't speak to them.

If you're in the US ... technically, you decide. Practically, a DZO or S&TA can decide to ground you if they disagree with your canopy choice; that's their right as a business owner/manager, just as it's your right to take your business to some other dropzone (though they may or may not have decided to call the DZO there, too). If you're still thinking about that Katana, don't be surprised if that happens.

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I find it hard to be the first to land amongst the group I have been jumping with.

When did this become a race to be first to the ground?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[wmw999 2,532]

Jumping a 170 at 145 lbs gives you a roughly 1:1 wing loading, if I'm reading you right. That's not at all aggressive, so I'm not surprised you're landing softly. I'm old, so landing softly is a nice thing. My boyfriend has 2000 jumps and jumps a Stiletto at 1.3 and loves it. The Stiletto has about the shortest recovery arc around.

Before you downsize, try to take a canopy control class, like the Scott Miller one or another. Go through the Parachutist list of canopy skills (it came out in the Feb 2004 Parachutist I think). It's eye-opening. Make that your next goal. That'll give you a lot more information with which to choose a next canopy.

Armed with that information, you can make a better decision about what you want to learn and work on, and whether your current canopy is the best one.

I have no idea of what canopy to go to from a Samurai. But you don't want to downsize and change planform at the same time (e.g. go from square to elliptical). You also don't want to go down more than a size (150).

But first go through the list of canopy skills on your 170. That's a great size to figure out that you're not perfect on.

Of course, I just read your other post, where you say that you have 31 jumps and are looking at a Katana.

a. if you're lying to get people to agree with you, then you're taking a really stupid path
b. a Katana is a lousy canopy to learn on. Just about the worst one.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[BETO74 0]

This is the difference between learning with a docil canopy on a lower wind loading than looking for a Katana higher W/L (see pictures attached) I'm not an agressive canopy pilot but this time I was deep in the corner and I though I could pull off a crosswind landing entirely my mistake and I didi walk out of it after going to ER twice they could not find anything broke but I keep passing out without reason due to the impact in my internal organs, is gonna take me 2 weeks two recover I'M ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES I know it could have been a lot worst, so think twice about your down sizing.

This is just my leg I can't give you a picture of how my internal organs look like.

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[dharma1976 0]

WHy dont you call Brian and have him put on the swoop lineset :-P

that might be a good start that will keep you jumping the same wing for a while...

and jumping a wing at 1-1 is not such a bad idea...I would load that 170 a bit more than you, but would be able to show you what a 170 can truly do...

I knwo that Brian will be in Lebanon Maine this weeekend if you are located nearby...why dont you go talk to him ;-)

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[davelepka 4]

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In my opinion, some people are more capable of handling themselves than others and therefore advise over the Internet might not be the best way..............

Handling themselves how? Grabbing their junk?

Those people who tell you you're talented may have fucked you over. They should have said you have potential, meaning that one day, you'll have some skills if you work on it.

Now your a new guy who thinks he's got something that others don't. The trouble is, you don't find this out until you A) get hurt, when you find out you're not any different, or B) you jump for a decade or so, and it turns out you do have what it takes to make it.

What doesn't help your situation is that you have made a shitload of jumps in a short time, only adding to your feelings of superiority.

The hot tip is to forget your jump numbers, and operate off your time in the sport. Remember that you'r every new to jumping, and there are alot of situations you haven't encountered.

As far as your canopy thing, see what your instructors think about a donwsize. A 150 wouldn't be that far off the mark, keeping in mind that you need to slow yourself down if plan to speed your canopy up. Ease into the new wing.

Make sure you ask the old, stodgy instructors, thats where you'll get the best advice.

[sdctlc 0]

This thread is very random. You profile is not correct.. I cant imagine that the Samurai was a suggested canopy even lightly loaded for a low jump number person as it is eliptical. I dont care how "Talented" you are. Again this is based on you saying 138 jumps and only 31 noted in the profile combined with just 5 stated months in the sport I am just guessing it is total of jumps under 200.

It is hard to take advice from the internet as everybody is different and does differnt things that only someone that knows how you fly may have seen. Any advice on the internet and specifically from this board is based on just speculation from your statment nd your profile combined with vast generalizations and basic safty guidlines.

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[bob.dino 1]

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On the advice of a number of experienced skydivers, I bought a Samurai 170 canopy, and have now done 138 jumps on it. It was a great canopy to begin with, but I've just started some fairly heavy front riser turns and have found that the recovery arc is quite shallow- I have read that this can lead me into a false sense of security. I have also found that the canopy is generally a little docile and I find it hard to be the first to land amongst the group I have been jumping with.

Then you're not flying it properly. Get some coaching from a pro and they'll show you what you can do when you start pushing it to its limits.

For the record, Brian only recommends the Samurai for those with at least 300 jumps. It's a very high performance canopy.

[br0k3n 0]

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For the record, Brian only recommends the Samurai for those with at least 300 jumps. It's a very high performance canopy.

[sic]We steer experienced and aggressive pilots toward the 1.5 to 1.8 lbs/sf (many pilots are comfortable above 2.0lbs/sf). Intermediate and conservative pilots toward the 1.3 - 1.5 range. They have even been used by inexperienced jumpers at very low wing-loadings...

So at the wingloading and experience justlovesit is at hes not really pushing any limits....

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[matt1215 0]

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<<>> <<< I have now managed to clock up 182 jumps, which I must say I'm very pleased with.>>>

Must be nice bro!! As much as I love to skydive, I can't afford to jump anywhere near as much and it looks like we got started about the same time.

For what it's worth, I took Scott Miller's class a few jumps post-aff. I'm jumping a Spectre-210 @ .9WL and will be making a few more jumps with Scott before I decide to downsize. I left his class with a lot of stuff to play with under canopy, and that wasn't even one of his advanced courses!!

[Justlovesit 0]

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Then you're not flying it properly. Get some coaching from a pro and
they'll show you what you can do when you start pushing it to its limits.

For the record, Brian only recommends the Samurai for those with at least
300 jumps. It's a very high performance canopy.

Bob, if that is your real name, how can you possible tell me that I am not
“flying it properly” I didn’t see you at my DZ at the weekend, perhaps you
were busy running some canopy coaching course elsewhere.

On Brian’s site it says “Intermediate and conservative pilots toward the
1.3 - 1.5 range. They have even been used by inexperienced jumpers at very
low wing-loadings...”

I notice from you profile that you also fly a Samurai 170, at a wing
loading of 1.2, so are you inexperienced?? if so then keep your advice to
yourself, maybe you should get some coaching from a “pro”??

[bob.dino 1]

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Bob, if that is your real name

It's obviously not my real name. Click on my profile if you're interested.

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how can you possible tell me that I am not “flying it properly”

Because if you believe it's a docile wing then either you're not flying it properly or you'll be competing in the PST next year. And given you've less than six months in the sport and under 200 jumps I know which one I'd be putting my money on.

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...if so then keep your advice to yourself...

You came on an internet messageboard soliciting advice. Please don't complain when you get it.


Oh, and from the Big Air Sportz Owner's Manual, p12:

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(The Samurai is a high performance parachute, requiring at least 300 jumps. Use of the Samurai by persons with less than 300 jumps is strictly prohibited, and may result in serious injury or death.)

[Tonto 1]

Time passes. The ground waits. It's not fast, but it's patient, and it always knows where you are. It doesn't give a flying monkey's toe how talented you are, or how current you are. When you arrive with speed it will do the damage it does. Every jumper lying broken or dead on a DZ from a high performance landing gone bad thought they were doing just great ten seconds ago. Human flesh has been torn by our planet since the begining. It will remain so till the end.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Peej 0]

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Every jumper lying broken or dead on a DZ from a high performance landing gone bad thought they were doing just great ten seconds ago.

Amen.

And I have the titanium to prove it.

Here's my thread in the incidents forum:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1280511;search_string=JSC;#1280511

You have two choices, listen to the great advice you've been given here, from people with 4 digits in their jump numbers, or star in your own thread.

Peace
PJ

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[wmw999 2,532]

OK, now you're sounding childish. Since you don't include your DZ or anything else, I'm hoping you're a troll trying to start some stuff. If you were to post your location, someone might volunteer to help coach you, or direct you to a class, or something.

If not, consider that maybe, just maybe, all these people with a lot more jumps than you know something that you don't. This is the Swooping and Canopy control forum; many of the folks who hang out here swoop, a lot, and generally quite well.

They might just know something you don't.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[cessna54tango 0]

hey, first by posting this on here youre going to get criticized with your jump numbers. jump numbers are just that a number they mean nothing, unless you want some uspa award or some dumb thing. im one that doesnt believe in a number, its the quality of the jumps you actually do make and how you are as a canopy pilot. ive posted elsewhere that ive seen 100 jump wonders flying the shit out of a canopy and people with 1000 jumps that dont have a clue as to how a canopy flies. anyways, ask around your dz, with good experieced canopy pilots and instructors. obviously they have seen you fly and land and can give you better advice than anyone on here. if it were me, id say get a xaos

go big or go home!

but thats just me.........

[davelepka 4]

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jump numbers are just that a number they mean nothing, unless you want some uspa award or some dumb thing.

I've heard this before. I have question, then - Why am I a better skydiver now, then I was last year? Or two years ago? Or four years ago?

Four years ago I had probably 3000 jumps or so, so I should have been on top of my game. Why is it that my skills continue to improve from year to year?

I've actaully been doing progressivly fewer jumps per season for the last few years, and I am absolutley less athletic than I used to be, but still, I end each season a better jumper than I was at the end of the previous season.

Please help me understand.

[matt1215 0]

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<<< if it were me, id say get a xaos >>>

Dude, a Xaos-78 would be perfect for you with your superior canopy skills!!

Betcha only jump it once !!

[cessna54tango 0]

naw, id actually get a custom one, you know so he'd be different. like a 77 or something and for the other guy.... you just keep tooting your horn

[davelepka 4]

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and for the other guy.... you just keep tooting your horn

That wasn't the point. The point was, contrary to your assertion, that jump numbers do matter. Coaching, education, and talent all help to develop skills, but you need the jumps to really know what you're doing.

I'm not sure of your jump numbers, but try to think back to when you had half as many jumps as you do now. How much did you know then? How much did you think you knew then? How much more do you know now?

[packerboy 3]

Want more out of your canopy? Just downwind everything... 20-30 knots.. fuckit... go bigtime downwind! And carve it too..

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Alright kids, that's enough of that. This is a topical forum and I really do wish we could keep positive information and feedback flowing without meaningless jabs.

Chuck

[cessna54tango 0]

ok, ok, seriously though, did you consider trying weights at all? that would up your wl a taste a give you a bit more performance. from what ive seen it seems to be a matter of wl for riser pressure. i know canopy design has to do with it too but if you take your samauri 170 say and a samauri 120, the 120 should have lighter pressure. im just using that as an example. try demoing a xf2. do you have a coach, or is there a canopy pilot willing to help you out? if so, see what he thinks. he will know best since he acutually sees you flying you wing. if he thinks you can handle it whats the problem. we have a guy that recently slowed his jumping down a little but at the end of last year, with only a year of jumping was on a viper 120. yea he pounded in twice but thats how you learn right no seriously, you should have someone at your dz answer this question for ya bro

[karma 3]

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i know canopy design has to do with it too but if you take your samauri 170 say and a samauri 120, the 120 should have lighter pressure.

Could you please explain how you came to that conclusion?

Grtz.