Canopy comparison:Velocity vs. Vengeance?

[freeflir29 0]

So last time I was home someone made the comment on seeing my Vengeance that it flies a lot like a Velocity. Obviously there are huge differences in the design. I was staying away from cross braced canopies because I am often uncurrent. I only jump in April, August, and Dec because I am out of the country and FAR from the nearest DZ for 9 months out of the year. I have about 100-200 jumps on the Vengeance and it's OK but the WHACKY openings and lack of swooping bottom end are making me think of a new canopy. Obviously I don't want to downsize until I am able to stay current. I want to stay at my 1.5 or so wing load till then. So I would need a Velo 150. Any truth to this statement? I haven't ever flown a velo.

[Peej 0]

Sorry dude, i have no experience whatsoever with the Vengeance or Velo, according to this though: http://www.performancedesigns.com/velocity.asp the biggest Velo they make is a 120.

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[freeflir29 0]

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the biggest Velo they make is a 120.

IIRC they will make custom canopies bigger. A 120 is the biggest they make as "stock."

[ccowden 0]

You started jumping a Vengeance when you had like 300 jumps? You have 100-200 jumps of choppy "experience" on your current wing? There is no way you have mastered or even become very proficient on HP non-crossbraced canopies, and now you want to move on to the most advanced, high-performance canopy that PD makes? And to top it all off, you don't jump very much and are often uncurrent? Those are some pretty poor choices.

Might as well just get a Velocity 90 and be done with it. You obviously aren't choosing canopies that fit your skill or the characteristics that you need at those loadings.

[marks 0]

I didn't know they made bigger velo's custom.

[Peej 0]

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the biggest Velo they make is a 120.

IIRC they will make custom canopies bigger. A 120 is the biggest they make as "stock."

Ah, ok cool.

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[JumpRu 14]

try Katana, my 107 opens very sort and always on heading and PD makes bigger sizes now.

[Peej 0]

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I didn't know they made bigger velo's custom.

Wasn't worth the hassle huh?

hehehehehehehehe

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[SkymonkeyONE 4]

A: you are not going to get them to build you a Velocity bigger than a 120

B: you really don't need a Velocity (or a Vengeance for that matter) Clay

I have owned Velos in three sizes, but before that I had one of the first Vengeance canopies off the line. They both dive very steep, but the Velocity is a much faster canopy that holds its speed longer after the turn.

Neither of those canopies are appropriate for a jumper who doesn't maintain currency. I could list any number of reasons why that is so.

PM me for my recommendation of another PD canopy you would be better suited for.

Chuck

[superstu 0]

all i can say is listen to chuck, he'll set you up with a wing you'll most likely be very happy with.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[AggieDave 6]

The canopies are nothing alike, except they both have lines, they both have toggles, ZP and they're made by PD.

The vengence is high performance. The Velo is a racecar. Think of it like a Corvette and a Ferrari.

Beyond that, I'm sure Chuck will let you know a good direction to go.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[frenchyflyer 0]

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The vengence is high performance. The Velo is a racecar. Think of it like a Corvette and a Ferrari.

I'm not sure that this analogy transmits the right message: who wouldn't want to drive a Ferrari?
or rather, who would think (even if it is true): that Ferrari is probably too much for me to handle I'll buy something else...

The thing is: the velocity requires currency: once the freefall is over you need to pay real attention!

My opinion is that a Sabre2 would be more suited to his kind of profile (I still jump my Sabre2 at 1.5 and I can make some great swoops with it, plus the riser pressure is less than on my velo).
Go with a Sabre2 150, it is not a step back, this canopy can outswoop many others...

[AggieDave 6]

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I'm not sure that this analogy transmits the right message: who wouldn't want to drive a Ferrari?

That's a good point.

Then again, if you think about it as driving with a full throttle/wide open in rush hour traffic on 75-central in Dallas, then it would make a little more sense I guess.

I guess rednecks shouldn't use analogies.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[freeflir29 0]

Oh quit yer bitchin! Yeah and people told me I was going to die under a Stiletto at 135 jumps. I didn't. Seriously.........after an email.......no they will NOT make a Velo bigger than 120. That leaves me out of it until I can get more current. However........... in the email they DID mention that, as of June 1st, they are going to be building the Katana in 135, 150, and 170 sq/ft sizes. That kicks ass. I have heard NOTHING but good things about a Katana. Now they have it in a sensible wing loading for me. I'm going to order a demo for August. Oh and here's the text of the email that PD sent.

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Hi Clayton - thanks for contacting us with your question. The largest
size available in the Velocity model is 120 sq. ft. If you are looking
for a high performance canopy inthe size 150 you might be delighted to
know that we are releasing the Katana 150 in just a few weeks! Yes,
Starting June 1st we'll be taking orders for katana sizes 135, 150 and 170
and we expect to have demos available by mid-june (but with a good
waiting list). Anyway, we'll have information on our website soon:
www.peformancedesigns.com and you can submit a demo request from the support
section (just write in the comments the size Katana you would like to
try).

Please let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks for
choosing PD!

Blue Skies!!

Rebeca Perren
Performance Designs, Inc

Now...........haven't you people learned anything about my canopy flying in the last 5 years. At 135 jumps I bought a Stiletto and people said I would die. I didn't. At 350+ I got a Vengeance.........nobody said much of anything. (I think they had given up. ) Haven't hurt myself on that either. Now..........they are going to build me a Katana. i just hope they fixed the line trim problems that they were having with the bigger sizes! Dammitt..........why can't I be super current or a midget! Then I wouldn't need "special" canopies!

[ccowden 0]

Well, you certainly seem to have it all figured out. Rock on!

[freeflir29 0]

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Well, you certainly seem to have it all figured out. Rock on!

Oh come on Chris...........What could POSSIBLY go wrong?



Funny my canopy flying would come up. When I was home last I had the SCARIEST landing EVER on my Vengeance. Believe it or not I was being ALL KINDS of conservative. It was April and the winds were FUNKY. I had sat on the ground for quite some time because of the unpredictable nature of the winds. Finally decided to go up and give it a try. Landed WAY out in the field where there SHOULDN'T be much turbulence. However, after a very conservative and DAMN near straight in approach............at like 15ft my canopy turns to MUSH and is jinking back and forth. Did my best to control it and keep it straight. Ended up ACTUALLY falling down and sorta pulled a calf muscle. I got "Damn that was graceful" out of Hans. Scared me.......I've felt that "Mushy" canopy once or twice before and it sucks knowing you have run out of options. I think I would have been better off to hook the shit out of it.

[Dominik 0]

You can not compare a Velo to a Vengeance (to answer your question) ...

I edited out your stupid little personal attack. Keep it clean.
-Chuck

[marks 0]

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I edited out your stupid little personal attack. Keep it clean.
-Chuck

[Dominik 0]

^^

sorry but I am getting tired of this people after what I have seen over the last years ...

[padawonMonkey 0]

There are some similarities between the Vengeance and the velocity other than the whole "lines, links, ZP" thing. One of the best tools for researching a PD canopy is the PD website read the comparison that is writen for you. The Velocity is compared to other canopies that you have jumped.That being said here is my opinion; A vengeance and Velo require very similar inputs to achieve a desired turn. Similar toggle strokes and IMO riser preasure. However after a turn (and even during a turn) the similarities end. You wind up with more oversteer and a tendancy to dive much longer with a velo.

Chuck has a way of being an angel on your shoulder during the skydiving day and a devil on the other at night. He won't steer you wrong on a canopy choice. And incedently if were to suggest a sabre2 and you think its to docile for you, you should his swoops on his.

--------------------------------------------------
"But I'm Just doin what I have to do to survive"-MM

[Cloudi 0]

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I'm going to order a demo for August.

...you have to convince the demo queen first...

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Yeah and people told me I was going to die under a Stiletto at 135 jumps. I didn't.

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At 350+ I got a Vengeance.........Haven't hurt myself on that either.

That's reassuring. Why does it almost sound as if the word "yet" should be inserted at the end of each of those sentences?

Uh-oh...I think I'm getting jaded...

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[davelepka 4]

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I have heard NOTHING but good things about a Katana. Now they have it in a sensible wing loading for me. I'm going to order a demo for August.

The Katana is a significant step up in performance from a Vengeance.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're only reason for switching canopies is the issues with the openings. This combined with your lack of currency makes a step up in performance a bad idea.

If your reason for switching was that you had mastered your current wing, then maybe increasing the performance might make sense, but simply not liking the openings doesn't add up to a need to go faster.

Just becasue your accelerated canopy progression has been trouble free thus far is no indication that the trend will continue. You're no different then all of the others who thought they could go against the grain, and eventually got hurt becasue of it. None of those guy saw it coming, or thought it would happen to them. Be careful.

[ScottMcC 0]

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... I have about 100-200 jumps on the Vengeance and it's OK but the WHACKY openings and lack of swooping bottom end are making me think of a new canopy. ...

What everyone else said.

I've heard of a few people having problems with openings on their Vengeances, but I haven't had that problem at all. Every now and then I get a weird one, but no more often than any other canopy I've jumped. Maybe you should pay more attention to your packing technique?

As for no bottom end, I beg to differ. I get great swoops with lots of lift at the end, and have never felt like I ran out of lift. But that's just me.

But if you want to try out your demo near me, I'll be happy to provide medical care until we can get you to the hospital.

[P-dro 0]

I wonder why people come here to ask advice and when advice is given, they don't want to hear.

Loic Jean Albert started to jump Velocities after 2 years in 8-way RW French National Team, doing 5-600 jumps a year with Stilletoes. He started to fly similarly sized Velocities. In an article, he explained that he needed all his experience not to get in trouble, because the wing was so radical, and that in his opinion jumping a Velocity under at least 300 jumps a year was asking for trouble...

[SkyPsycho 0]

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Funny my canopy flying would come up. When I was home last I had the SCARIEST landing EVER on my Vengeance. Believe it or not I was being ALL KINDS of conservative. It was April and the winds were FUNKY.

be happy you werent under a velo or crossbrace. they are more succeptable to funky things happening to them in turbulence. 2 weeks ago there were funky winds all day, peoples canopies breathing, bucking, all kinds of shit. i was on about my 6th work jump that day and i did a 270 approach and honked down on it the last 90 hard. as i planed out, i heard and felt the canopy do something that i did not want to even see, a loud slap and thump. it collapsed and reinflated at about 8 feet off the ground, and i flew the shit outta it instead of looking cuz i didnt have a choice. when i got back to the mat, everyone thought i had biffed in, when actually it threw me sideways and i carved across the ground and then back the other way with my hips just grazing the tops of the grass. most fun jumpers chose to stay grounded after that one. i was lucky. i heard a cameraperson at x keys had the same thing happen also with his velo ( i was jumping the same) and grounded himself the rest of the day. if it collapsed a foot or so lower, or not reinflated, my flying may not have been any issue cuz there would be nothing i could have done.

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I think I would have been better off to hook the shit out of it.

i did.....it twasnt pretty


if yer just screwin round, take my comments with a grain of salt............but be careful out there

_______________________________
HK MP5SD.........silence is golden