Consequences of hopping and popping a high aspect ratio canopy with a collapsed slider?

[cpoxon 0]

I'm curious about speeding up the openings on a class 5 high-aspect elliptical 9-cell canopy, specifically, my Crossfire 109 loaded at 1.8:1. Does anyone know of any adverse reactions to hopping and popping such a canopy with either a collapsed or modified (spider/mesh) slider?

Why I hear you ask? Basically, in an effort to film CRW using a non-CRW canopy. See here for more details. And yes, I realise that if I am not able to deploy within a certain space of time with such a configuration then going to the reserve would be my only option.

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[TALONSKY 0]

I would think a collapsed slider would be a nightmare to deal with (just think about the draw strings in the slider getting tangled up with the suspension lines). What about having a mess slider made?
Kirk

[skygod7777 0]

collapsed slider i don't think is a good plan, but if you could get a mesh slider made, or a slider with the center cut out would be a better route in my opinion

later

[davelepka 4]

I'm not exactly sure, but I'd guess that like most modern, soft opening canopies, the slider on an X fire is huge. Borrow a smaller one from another canopy, and just use that.

Avoid a mesh slider on a sport canopy. Even on a clear and pull, the airspeed from the AC alone is enough to make it brutal.

Better yet, just grab your rear risers, and force the thing to open faster in the stock configuration.

[Velopilot 0]

I got in a rush a few years back and left my slider collapsed, on accident, while I was packing my Stiletto 120. Normal skydive, terminal deployment, and it opened slow, soft, and on heading like it always did. Nothing about that opening was different than normal. However it could have been a complete fluke. Your talking about doing it on a hop n pop on a different canopy so there is only one way to find out.
If you're looking for instant canopy just have someone pilot chute assist you and get out in a sit. It works awesome.

[Tonto 1]

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I got in a rush a few years back and left my slider collapsed, on accident, while I was packing my Stiletto 120. Normal skydive, terminal deployment, and it opened slow, soft, and on heading like it always did. Nothing about that opening was different than normal. However it could have been a complete fluke. Your talking about doing it on a hop n pop on a different canopy so there is only one way to find out.
If you're looking for instant canopy just have someone pilot chute assist you and get out in a sit. It works awesome.

I think that's really, really bad advice. People have died doing what you're suggesting. Hard openings can and have killed in this sport.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[cpoxon 0]

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I would think a collapsed slider would be a nightmare to deal with (just think about the draw strings in the slider getting tangled up with the suspension lines).

The Triathlon that I have been jumping with a collapsed slider has a drawstring. I wrapped it around the slider and tied a knot in it to minimise the risk. There is a risk but I don't think it is too great. Perhaps a velcro wrap would be better (and mated precisely so that none could escape and be another snag risk)?

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[cpoxon 0]

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I'm not exactly sure, but I'd guess that like most modern, soft opening canopies, the slider on an X fire is huge. Borrow a smaller one from another canopy, and just use that.

That's an idea but this is my regular canopy and I don't really want to be changing the slider often. I know that's not really a good reason not to do it, but that's the way it is!

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Avoid a mesh slider on a sport canopy. Even on a clear and pull, the airspeed from the AC alone is enough to make it brutal.

Really? Why is that? What's the difference between a mesh slider and a collapsed one?

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Better yet, just grab your rear risers, and force the thing to open faster in the stock configuration.

Tried that. Not effective enough.

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[cpoxon 0]

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If you're looking for instant canopy just have someone pilot chute assist you and get out in a sit.

Not in this situation, I don't think. The limiting step in this process is the slider coming down, not so much the extraction of the canopy and even with a PCA, the (big, uncollapsed, sail) slider still has to come down.

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[cpoxon 0]

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I got in a rush a few years back and left my slider collapsed, on accident, while I was packing my Stiletto 120. Normal skydive, terminal deployment, and it opened slow, soft, and on heading like it always did. Nothing about that opening was different than normal. However it could have been a complete fluke. Your talking about doing it on a hop n pop on a different canopy so there is only one way to find out.
If you're looking for instant canopy just have someone pilot chute assist you and get out in a sit. It works awesome.

I think that's really, really bad advice. People have died doing what you're suggesting. Hard openings can and have killed in this sport.

I hate attempting to interpret what others mean in online discussion but I got the impression that Velopilot wasn't talking about trying to take a collapsed slider to terminal intentionally which I what I think you are refer to when you talk about people getting killed in this sport?

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[cpoxon 0]

p.s. This is mostly hypothetical since I discovered that the Crossfire isn't as predictable in the burble of a CRW formation as a lower-aspect ratio (and lighter loaded) canopy such as the Triathlon. But i am still curious as to what bad things could happen, if anything?

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[Tonto 1]

I comment on what I read. Sometimes I read stuff in. Usually my reply tends towards the conservative.

I have 750 CRW rotation dives in slot 4 back before the 30 second rule.
Our team was occasionally putting a 4 stack together in 13 seconds, with about a 15 second average. That's 15 seconds from first exit, meaning camera would need to go last.

1 and 2 would go together doing a 2 and 3 second delay, 3 would go 1 second later, doing a 1 second, 4 goes 1 second after 3 doing a 1 second delay.

What this means is that no 4 is deploying 3 seconds after the clock starts, has about a 1 second deployment, and 9 seconds later has docked 4th. That sounds fast, but generally the stack is just steaming underneath you and a short stab on the risers gets you there.

Now I know things are a bit more laid back these days, but there was a CRW deployment collision fatal last month. I think tossing a slider stowed 9 cell eliptical into the mix is a less than perfect idea.

Back in the early AR-7, Rubis, Matrix days, we all knew taking a CRW rig to terminal was a bad idea, but I know no-one who actually over delayed and fired their reserves. Habit is a strange thing. I also think disabling your main with a time delay switch operated from exit means you're trying too hard for the job you're doing, or you're using the wrong gear. I also think you'll get better answers among those in the CRW forum.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Velopilot 0]

I wasn't trying to tell the man to take his canopy to terminal with his slider collapsed. He'd mentioned leaving it collapsed for a hop n pop and I did comment "there is only one way to find out." However, I agree with you in that this is not a very well written statement and can be interpreted to be dangerous advice so I retract it. I should say if you are thinking about doing a hop n pop with your slider collapsed put some thought into it, and ask others for their input. Personally I don't think it would be a very dangerous attempt at low speeds. I'd make sure the excess lines were stowed or taped up neatly to prevent any chance of slider hang up. And if I had the opportunity to try it out of a 182 before a faster turbine I would. If you are trying to film a team then I'd refer to Tonto's statement: I think tossing a slider stowed 9 cell eliptical into the mix is a less than perfect idea.

[dploi 0]

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Really? Why is that? What's the difference between a mesh slider and a collapsed one?

Months of chiropracter visits. Large, fine mesh slider is going to work better for you. The position of the grommets on a collapsed slider will drop it faster with the lines closer together. think about it... it's closer to a slider off/tailgate than it is to using a mesh slider. ouch.

[MrBrant 0]

so, did you try it this weekend?

[cpoxon 0]

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so, did you try it this weekend?

Nope. Only terminal jumps this weekend. There's a CF introductory weekend at my dropzone in a couple of weeks. Maybe try it then :-o

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[klingeme 1]

When I was videoing CReW with my Stilletto, I used to collapse it with worn velcro (my slider had a velcro closure sysem before I have the drawstrings added). This would speed up the air getting to the canopy, but after the initial "shock" the velcro would come undone. I'd say it took 150 ft off my openings and I used it consistantly when doing team video.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[livenletfly 0]

another idea is to change the brake setting's an inch or two deeper. this will speed up openings and be more predictable. play around with different combinations like a smaller slider and deeper brake settings. sounds a whole lot safer than collapsing the slider.

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