Full brake and Full flight hook turn characteristics? anyone

[shadowswoop97 0]

I am curious to know which method of hook turn approach is more well suited to build speed and generate power, the Full Braked approach? or the Full Flight approach? In what ways does each one specifically affect the wing and change the flight characteristics for the better or for the worse?

[marks 0]

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I am curious to know which method of hook turn approach is more well suited to build speed and generate power, the Full Braked approach? or the Full Flight approach?

I use full flight, I compete against peeps who use full flight. they beat me, I beat them.

I use full flight, I compete against peeps who setup in full brakes, I beat them and they beat me.

I use full flight, jay moledsky {SP} uses braked approch.
THAT RAT BASTARD BEATS ME EVERY TIME!!!!!

and it isnt because of the braked approach.

but I have a better chance now that I fly a JVX.

[polarbear 1]

I've done both through my career. The way I think about it is...

In brakes, you are starting at a slower speed. Therefore you must dive either harder or longer to reach a given speed. I personally don't think the canopy dives any harder (steeper) - assuming that's true, then the canopy must dive longer to achieve a given speed. This means either bigger turns (more rotation) or slower turns. Slowing the turn might help, but there's a limit - if you turn too slow, the canopy never really gets diving.

So that means longer turns.

The moral of the story is I think if you are doing short turns (like a 270), I don't think you dive long enough to make up the speed difference when you start in brakes. If you are doing big turns, it doesn't matter that much.

I prefer starting from full flight. One advantage from starting in brakes is that you aren't moving so fast during setup, so it can be easier to hit your turn point.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[superstu 0]

what are your thoughts?

edit to add: i start in full-flight, but there is a lot of good information in the "technical questions" forum on canopypiloting.com. for example in one of the threads titled "how many seconds in your turn" (or someting to that effect) JayMo wrote this about braked turn approaches:

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One might argue that if you start your turn from full flight you have a smaller percentage of speed left in witch to place yourself at your given target at just the opportune moment? Example would be redlining or topping out before you reach the gate and having no other option other than to decelerate through the gate. Whereas starting from a slower flight mode might offer you the option to 1: Start from a higher altitude(there by having more time to adjust your position) 2:Have softer front risers on initiation of the turn allowing for possibly a deeper input witch may result in an overall faster speed. 3:More time in acceleration band therefore more likelihood of hitting the gates in an acceleration mode (albeit sometimes hard to control) Just some thoughts Jay

check out some of the other things on there as well.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

I use full brakes for about 5-6 seconds, then go over to dubble fronts and start the turn with harnas input. After the first 90° I switch over to frontriser turn for the last 180°.

The only thing I haven't found out yet is the direction of the turn. (Left or right)
At the moment I'm using a right turn but I think that I'm going to make the switch to a left turn because then I can make my set-up towards the wind direction.

[spoons 0]

Wouldn't it be a better idea to do your turn to the direction that gives you the most 'outs' in case you have to abort the turn at somepoint...don't want to be swooping towards something like a fence or building!

[yardhippie 0]

Under a non-crossed braced canopy I used both approaches depending on traffic, altitude, etc.
I preferred the braked approach b/c it allowed for a slower turn rate, more like a carve. That also allowed for a more constant rate, and from what Im learning consitancy is key. I feel that a full flight approach under that canopy provided more speed for dive time. I dont necessarily belive that either approach provided a longer run or more powerful rollout.

I'll have to let ya know what I think about a cross-braced after the next 1000 jumps or so.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[skyedivr 0]

People can express their opinions about this all day.

Braked approach allows you to reach your point slower, and it slows everything down for you to concentrate on what you are doing. It also easier to pull the front risers down where you want them to be. To gain back the speed lost by a braked approach, you can just hang on fronts longer.

IMO slowing everything down before the turn has its benifits, so that is how I start my turn.

my power is beyond your understanding.

[Peej 0]

Newbie pilot here, so take what i say with a pinch of salt.

A while back i was trying to dial in my 180's and after looking at video of a few weeks worth of landings with an experienced pilot on my dz, he told me that i was rushing through the turn and should try to keep her diving longer.

I found this very difficult, i would only be through my first 90 degrees of the turn and already the riser pressure would have built up so much that i couldn't keep her there. Then we started discussing doing the turn from full brakes and while i am nowhere near to perfecting it yet, it certainly feels like it's easier to pull the risers down initially, then keep them down and keep her in the dive longer.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[phoenixlpr 0]

Why full brakes? Is should level not enough?

[Peej 0]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking there bro?

What I'm saying is that what i've found is starting the turn from full brakes, ie flying my downwind leg in full brakes, getting to my turn initiation point, then letting up the toggles and climbing on the double fronts immediately results in significantly reduced riser pressure.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[phoenixlpr 0]

Ok.

You should know better. I start my double front approach with 1/4 breaks/shoulder level, because my front risers are really heavy from full flight.

[superstu 0]

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To gain back the speed lost by a braked approach, you can just hang on fronts longer.

if you have the altitude to do that. if you don't, then you'll be either in the corner and/or have to do a faster turn, which means you won't have the power.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[ntacfreefly 0]

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if you have the altitude to do that.Wink if you don't, then you'll be either in the corner and/or have to do a faster turn, which means you won't

Which is no different in a full flight approach For the sake of the discussion it's safe to assume sufficient altitude for either one

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[superstu 0]

just didn't want people thinking that you could start a braked approach from the same hieght that you start from full-flight, and get the same amount of power

by the way you're an ass

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[shadowswoop97 0]

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if you have the altitude to do that.Wink if you don't, then you'll be either in the corner and/or have to do a faster turn, which means you won't

Which is no different in a full flight approach For the sake of the discussion it's safe to assume sufficient altitude for either one

bUT IF ALLOWED THE SUFFICIENT ALTITUDE FOR THE TURN RATE, IT IS SAFE TO SAY THAT THE FULL BRAKED APPROACH WILL BE ABLE TO DIVE LONGER DUE TO STARTING AT A SLOWER SPEED WHICH IN TURN MEANS THE CANOPY WILL HAVE MORE TIME TO REACH ITS MAX SPEED WHICH IN TURN GENERATES MORE SPEED OVERALL

[ntacfreefly 0]

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by the way you're an ass[Laugh]

Thanks for overstating the obvious there.

I see you're not on your witty comeback game as usual

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[ntacfreefly 0]

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bUT IF ALLOWED THE SUFFICIENT ALTITUDE FOR THE TURN RATE, IT IS SAFE TO SAY THAT THE FULL BRAKED APPROACH WILL BE ABLE TO DIVE LONGER DUE TO STARTING AT A SLOWER SPEED WHICH IN TURN MEANS THE CANOPY WILL HAVE MORE TIME TO REACH ITS MAX SPEED WHICH IN TURN GENERATES MORE SPEED OVERALL

Thanks for the all CAPS Yelling post Nick (btw I'm sending your DV tapes up to Dan and he'll give them to you hehe). It's official you can now post as loud as your car horn honks

Jokes aside though, I agree with you that a PROPERLY executed deep brake to deep front risers approach has the potential to build more energy than a full flight approach. The tricky part is that it's easy for pilots to turn too early (a common error with this approach) and not enter the turn with as much speed as they could...ultimately resulting in a lessor swoop.

Hope you're well bro!

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[shadowswoop97 0]

sorry about the caps, didnt even look up at the scrren, huntin and peckin you see, I do agree though it is a tough technique to master, and even then everything has to be right for the generation of the speed to be used efficiently through the gate. Thats the hard part doing that turn and always hitting the exact altitude needed to generate power and hit the gates with all the power. Thnaks for the info on the tapes dan was asking about those, hes just a little more forward about actually doing things needed to be done than I am. I read you arent making it to the swoop festival, I guess I will try to see uou in Brazil, how much is that trip gonna cost?

[Widgeon 0]

Just a matter of personal preference IMHO. I like to use the harness for control of rotation and the risers for regulating the dive... SO--

I start from the verge of a stall and let the canopy get back in front of me to catch it on the surge, then get on both risers hard while the pressure is still lower than full flight to get it diving. When I'm happy with how steep the dive is going, I twist in the direction of the turn to use the harness all out for the rotation. To me, it's the most repeatable process I can perform and the turns look very similar on video. The rotation is very progressive and if executed properly, very smooth. I struggled with different techniques before settling on this and it's the most consistent turn I can throw. I'm doing a right handed 270 for now, but this technique when I experiment up high works out well for larger rotations.

The deep brakes accomplish two things that are important to me. The reduced riser pressure for the maneuver, and my ground track when setting up is slower. I feel I can be more point specific of where my process starts so I can be more accurate.
Safe swoops...

[superstu 0]

ok how about this...

in colorado and in florida, both Ian and I were going pretty much the exact same distance in either practice runs or in competition runs. Now Ian starts in deep brakes like the majority of people and i start in full-flight. Ian flies an HMA lined velo and i fly a JVX, ian has a 90 and i have an 87. so two very similar wings, going very similar distances, but starting from very different flight modes.

and just for the record i would say that an HMA lined velocity is the closest wing in comparison to a JVX. i don't think there is a stock parchute out there today that i could fly further or faster with then a JVX.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[shadowswoop97 0]

I can see your point, aside from the setup difference there is a difference in wings, and yes the Velocity is the closest to the JVX, but how many jumps does Ian have under the Velocity with his current set up, and how many jumps do you have under your JVX with your current setup? Just give it time and the dark side will take over the force. Hey Ian when are you switching over to the dark side? Wait till competition pilots have as much training under their JVX as others have under their Velocities over the past 5 years, the time has come, change is part of evolution.

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the time has come, change is part of evolution.

I love it!.....

cant wait for what is next. just have to master what we got first.

[supafly 0]

I'd be interested to hear how the execution of your turn differs from Ian's (or someone else that starts in deep brakes). In particular, harness versus front riser usage. How does your usage of one versus the other change as the turn progresses from initiation to coming out on heading?

I recently picked up an HMA-lined Velo 96. Obviously, it flys a hell of a lot differently than my Crossfire did so I'm playing with as many new techniques as I can come across to figure out what is going to work best for me under this wing.

Thanks,
Keith

Arizona Drive 4-Way VFS - www.DriveVFS.com

[polarbear 1]

That doesn't make sense to me...it's true the canopy can dive longer if you start from brakes, but that's becasue you're starting at a slower speed. I don't see how you can achieve a higher speed at the end of the dive.

The longer dive you can do from brakes is because you are starting slower...the extra time in the dive is spent making up the difference between full flight and brakes. The max speed at the end of the dive should be the same???

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"