Harness Turns

[yoink 321]

Hey folks,

I'm jumping a Sabre 135, loaded at just over 1.3.

No matter how I shift my weight around under canopy, I find it really hard to get any more than a tiny turn just by harness input.

Is this normal? Are harness turns only effective at much higher loadings or is there some special technique I've not heard of?

Generally I'm tring to turn by reaching down towards the ground with the leg I want to turn into and lifting the other leg up and leaning into the turn.

It's worth saying that my harness is pretty small for my frame - could this be a problem?

Cheers.

[rhys 0]

1.3 wingloading is pretty light for harness turns on thier own but if you use your harness as well as your risers it should help to minimise the distortion from the riser input.

i use harness only for my approach but i am loaded at 2.0

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[phoenixlpr 0]

I've noticed the harness turn effect around WL 1.3. My canopy was turning without input(from brakes), I had to realize it was not a canopy problem and my body position was the cause.

If you want to turn to the left try leaning to the left and lifting you right knee and right hip up.

[marks 0]

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Is this normal? Are harness turns only effective at much higher loadings or is there some special technique I've not heard of?

with a 1.3 wing loading it isn't going to turn much.

but here is a technique that will help..

once under canopy, unstow your toggles, put your hands in your front risers and pull down on them. at the same time lift your knees to your chest and wiggle your legs. this will help slide the leg straps down you leg a little. that way when you lean in the harness or drop a leg and raise the other, your getting more motion from the harness to create the turn.

[Pendragon 1]

Sabre is a square canopy; getting it to respond to harness input is going to be tough, especially at your loading.

I couldn't do much with my Pilot at 1.35, and that's at least tapered.

Elliptical canopies (like the Xfire2, Mamba, Cobalt etc) will respond however... which is why their openings are twitchier.

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BASE #1182
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[jakee 1,563]

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I'm jumping a Sabre 135, loaded at just over 1.3.

No matter how I shift my weight around under canopy, I find it really hard to get any more than a tiny turn just by harness input.

Brian Germain's book states that square or lightly tapered canopies generally don't respond much to harness input. Sabres are pretty square.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[The111 1]

I always turned my Spectre 170 @ 1.1 with harness input, while unzipping my wingsuit. Sort of a combination between picking up one knee toward my chest, and leaning the other way.

It was a very gentle turn, but it got me headed where I needed to be.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Fast 0]

Im jumping a XF2 139 @ 1.5 and even at this WL it takes good coordination to get the turn going.

One other thing you can do to see the effect of a harness turn is start a light toggle turn (just to get the canopy turning in a nice big wide arc) then lean into it with everything you have. Might notice something there. Not really good for anything, but you will at least get to feel the harness doing its thing.

You could also try cranking out a 270 and after your back in straight flight (but before you bleed off the speed from the turn) lean into the harness one way or another. It always seemed to me to be more noticable the faster I was going.


Do both of those things up high out of traffic.

~D
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[dharma1976 0]

yeah I do the thing that marks said, I get my leg straps down a bit....then if I really want to crank a harness turn here is what I do

initiate the turn with harness and apply even toggle strok about shoulder height it will speed up the turn a bit...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[AdD 1]

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yeah I do the thing that marks said, I get my leg straps down a bit....then if I really want to crank a harness turn here is what I do

It's all about the leg strap position. On my previous canopy, stiletto 150 at 1.3 WL, I would loosen my legstraps and move them towards my knee to get more control with the harness, to the point where the steepness of my dive/speed was as close to canopy terminal velocity I had ever gotten. Even bigger/docile canopies will respond to harness if legstraps are adjusted. This is not for everybody and makes your legs very sore on high hop n pops.

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[NWPoul 1]

When I was jumping 170ish spectre with ~1.3 WL
It turned by harness pretty well:)
What really help - is to pull slider down behind your head and spread your chest strap;)

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[bob.dino 1]

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What really help - is to pull slider down behind your head and spread your chest strap;)

This is worth repeating. Without the slider pulled down and the chest-strap loosened, harness input will have little effect.

[br0k3n 0]

slide your leg straps slighty down your legs, so that you are sat in your harness as opposed to hanging in it. That way your imputs will be larger. Does that make sense??

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[br0k3n 0]

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What really help - is to pull slider down behind your head and spread your chest strap;)

This is worth repeating. Without the slider pulled down and the chest-strap loosened, harness input will have little effect.

I think this is variable depending on your canopy. I would notice very little difference between riser down and chest strap loosened when using harness inputs under a safire 134 and 119.

Under my current 107 Stiletto I can fly it only using the harness with the slider up and chest strap tight. In fact after I have deployed I will fly it using harness inputs whilst I stow my slider, sort my leg straps out and loosen my chest strap. Having said that once all that is done the result of any harness input is a lot greater.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[The111 1]

I agree, on my Spectre 170 @ 1.1 (previously mentioned) I never did anything special with chest strap or slider. I could do 180's or whatever I needed, with harness input, while unzipping my wingsuit. The brakes were still stowed... perhaps that makes it easier?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[bob.dino 1]

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I agree, on my Spectre 170 @ 1.1 ... I never did anything special with chest strap or slider. I could do 180's or whatever I needed, with harness input...

I found my Spectre 190 @ 1.0 had almost no sensitivity to harness input unless I loosened the chest-strap and pulled the slider down. Maybe I have dodgy technique?

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The brakes were still stowed... perhaps that makes it easier?

It definitely changes things, but I'm not exactly sure how. I know, for example, that my Samurai will continue turning if you initiate a rear-riser turn with brakes stowed, but not if in full glide.

[br0k3n 0]

Someone correct me if im wrong, but doesnt the effect of loosening your chest strap decrease as your canopy gets larger...

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[rhys 0]

i guess that depends on your canopy and harness but if you loosen your chest strap and the risers move further apart then you are making your canopy more eficient.

the flatter the canopy the more efficien it is.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[AggieDave 6]

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Someone correct me if im wrong, but doesnt the effect of loosening your chest strap decrease as your canopy gets larger...

No, you just need a longer chest strap. Actually what happens is that the canopy won't be able to spread out as much due to the size of the slider and it restricting the risers. It is a sliding scale for canopy size in regards to how much a canopy has to spread to get flat and more efficent. However, every little bit helps. Regardless of size on your sport main you should have a collapsable PC and collapse the slider. If you want to pull the slider down and loosen your chest strap, that can't hurt either. If nothing else it helps with the wear and tear on the lines at the attatchement point from the slider (even though its collapsed).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

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This is worth repeating. Without the slider pulled down and the chest-strap loosened, harness input will have little effect.

I'd say it's more a factor of canopy shape. I can harness turn an Icarus 330 without adjusting the chest strap. Loading is a lage factor too. Leaning foward into the harness helps.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[The111 1]

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I agree, on my Spectre 170 @ 1.1 (previously mentioned) I never did anything special with chest strap or slider. I could do 180's or whatever I needed, with harness input, while unzipping my wingsuit. The brakes were still stowed... perhaps that makes it easier?

I've been thinking about this more and more, since I don't consider myself a very good canopy pilot I've been wondering why I can do what people are saying is so hard. I wonder if it has something to do with my wingsuit/harness connection? I'll bet that when I lean to the side my wingsuit is actually pulling down on the MLW on one side, which may be a more off-center pull than just off-center pressure on a legstrap. Possible?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[lili 0]

I could be wrong but I thought that a spectre is a 7 cell slightly eliptical, in which case wouldn't it respond more to harness turns than a sabre? Also I remember from when I used to jump one that it seemed quite ground hungry (steep angle of attack) and I thought I read something a while ago about how this has an effect on how efficient harness turns are too.

Could be wrong though, not a canopy expert by a long shot.

Lx

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

I had a Sabre 150 loaded at 1.32 and a Sabre 135 loaded at 1.47.
Both responded quite well on harnas turns.
Not like my present canopy, not by a long shot but they responded

[monkycndo 0]

Harness turns on my Sabre170 @1.19 with slider collapsed but not lowered were minor. Mostly when I was leaning hard to pull the toes off after deploying in my wingsuit. Now with my new Sabre2 150 @ 1.35 with slider dropped and chest strap opened, harness input is substantial. I am relearning how to fly. And it's good.

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[jheadley 0]

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I could be wrong but I thought that a spectre is a 7 cell slightly eliptical, in which case wouldn't it respond more to harness turns than a sabre? Also I remember from when I used to jump one that it seemed quite ground hungry (steep angle of attack) and I thought I read something a while ago about how this has an effect on how efficient harness turns are too.

Could be wrong though, not a canopy expert by a long shot.

Lx

You hear a lot of people say that a Spectre has a steep glide ratio (I don't know if they've ever actually jumped them, though), but PD's flight characteristics sheet says a Spectre actually has a slightly flatter glide than a Sabre 2. I put 5 jumps on a Spectre 150 and found the glide angle to be very similar to my Sabre 2 150.

In my experience, a "flat" flying Stiletto 150 can be harness turned more easily than a Spectre 150, so I think the ability to harness turn it has more to do with the square footage and the wing taper, rather than the glide ratio.