Digging or not? What makes the difference?

[phoenixlpr 0]

Hi,

In a induced speed landing, like from double fronts to 90 degrees approach what make different between it was too low/digged out and a good one? Is using about same amount of input start flare like normal approach digging already?

[hparrish 0]

I'm not trying to be a jerk.

What are you asking? I think its an important question, but your'e question is hard to understand.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Is "digging out/stabbing brakes" the right term for recover from a low turn?

So what makes the difference between digging out and a perfect swoop?

[andyflylife 0]

I know there will be far better answers from far more experienced canopy pilots to follow this one but here goes...

Any input by the pilot to pull the canopy out of the dive to avoid hitting the deck, whether it is steady toggle input or a stab; is 'Digging'
The amount of input needed to 'dig' would be relevant to shoe how much too low the turn was or how much too late the pilot stopped giving front riser input. Basically pulling out with toggles means you were in 'The Corner' how ever much that was.

I dont know how you would define a perfect swoop? For me on my canopy there's a very fine line between allowing the canopy to plain out on its own at just the right swoop height or a tiny bit high, and allowing the canopy to be just a fraction in 'the corner' which is plained out using rear risers (Technically a dig) which then slingshots me forward for the swoop!

Damn now im confused

Hope i made sense!!

Blue skies.

"swooper 24/7, 365!"
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[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Damn now im confused

You did a reasonably good job of describing things.

Ideally the canopy pilot only needs to bump the rears out (not pull them down) in order to level out after they've let their canopy recover by itself from their turn in order to max out their swoop performance. But we've all been in the corner at some point. It's just a question of how often do you find yourself there. If it is frequently, well then the jumper has issues and if they don't fix those issues, then they are just asking for trouble. But remember it's better to dig oneself out of the corner rather than to pound in.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AggieDave 6]

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But remember it's better to dig oneself out of the corner rather than to pound in.

However, when you are consistantly having to dig out, when you find your self jumping in different conditions with a higher density altitude, you might find that your constant "digging out" results in skipping like a rock.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[selwynj 0]

You basically want to allow the canopy to reach level flight on its own. Your turn should be high enough for this to happen. This period of level flight will only be reached after your last input to the canopy has been done and 4-5 seconds have passed. This will however differ from canopy to canopy, wingloading steepness of the dive etc. My advice will be to find a capable canopy pilot and have a long chat to him, because there is much more to this than meets the eye. If you get it wrong you WILL HURT YOURSELF.

What canpoy? What altitude? what wingloading?

“It takes ten years to get ten years’ experience” Eric "tonto" Stephenson D515 PASA

[phoenixlpr 0]

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This period of level flight will only be reached after your last input to the canopy has been done and 4-5 seconds have passed.

Thanks. I think you have answered my question.

[tr027 0]

Digging is using the brakes to plane out; brakes should only need to be used for the actual landing flare.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[raymod2 1]

You're not going to get a good answer because it's not black and white. Some tail input will often be required to plane out depending on type of canopy, wing loading, and type of turn. Too much tail input will slow you down and hurt performance. It will also use up your margin for error. Digging, when I use the term, refers to excessive tail input close to the ground - a large last minute correction.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Digging is using the brakes to plane out; brakes should only need to be used for the actual landing flare.

Depends on the canopy, wing loading, and specifics of the speed inducing maneuver. All combinations will eventually return to their trim speed and glide path for the given wing load and steady state control input. Before that happens

- Canopy + load + turn combinations producing a neutral recovery arc will level out completely (Stiletto). You can let them swoop for a while and then start adding input. If this happens somewhat above ground level you'll get a noticeable surge as they return to trim speed and potentially have a bad landing.

- Those with a so-called negative recovery arc will achieve a shallower descent at higher than trim speed. You'll need some toggle or rear riser input if you don't want to hit the ground hard (Samurai, FX, etc). Being a bit high isn't going to have any noticeable negative effect; this makes such designs more user friendly.

- Those with a positive recovery arc will gain altitude. If this happens your brake lines have probably shrunken too much.

[AggieDave 6]

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when I use the term, refers to excessive tail input close to the ground - a large last minute correction.

I also consider that different then someone who started putting some input in while still early in the dive due to a lower turn (a mistake or on purpose for some reason). I view "digging" similar, a large last minute correction, but I also tend to add that it was a drastic maneuver. I would consider someone who consistantly turned low, but was aware enough to know that and add input high as someone consistantly "in the corner." Which will bite you as I mentioned earlier in this thread.

You're very correct, though, there is not a straight black and white answer.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[superstu 0]

what constitutes someone "digging"? There are a few ways we could probably look at this.

the short version:
the amount of input required in a certain amount of time tells you how low and in the corner you are. the more input you are required to give, via toggles or rear risers, in a short amount of time to land softly or to have the parachute back over your head the lower you were in the corner and the closer to injury or death you were. so it's not just the amount of input given but also the rate at which the input is given.

the longer version:
what's one key element to a good landing in general, not just swooping? Answer: being smooth with ones inputs. so when someone is not smooth with their inputs (ie stabbing of the toggles, too much input in a certain amount of time, ect) can tell you how close to impact that person was.

a good way to think about this is by watching new skydivers, students, or RW'ers (just kidding), land a parachute. When they come straight in to land you often see them flair too late, now what do you see them do once they notice they've flaired too late? answer: make a quick jerking motion with the toggles down to their hips in an effort to slow down as much as possible as quick as possible, which most of us classify as a stabing of the toggles. the key concept in this example is "...a quick jerking motion with their toggles down to their hips...". you notice that it's not only the amount of input applied but the rate at which it was applied.

another example would be more experienced skydivers who swoop who are low and in the "corner". in this kind of instance a VERY general rule of thumb is the more amount of input you have to give to plane yourself out, the further you are in the corner and closer to impact. so if you do a "X" degree of turn and you have to bring your toggles down to your hips or transfer to toggles from rears before you've even planed out, then you should most likely raise your turn height.

however, some canopies such as the katana, velo, xaos, jvx, ect, you will have to give a certain amount of input to plane it out just because that's how aggressive they are and typically they are loaded higher than say safires, sabre2's, or stiletto's.

that's, i guess, the very basics of it. but really, it's hard to quantify when you are low. because you can't say "well i brought my toggles down 3 inches so that means i was low." it doesn't work like that.

canopy coaches are the best for that cuase they can help you out live and in person.

next time you guys are at the dz, try watching people land and watch what those who are flairing too late do to try and correct their "lateness". this also goes back to building a solid foundation of skills, being smooth with your inputs is a very basic skill but how many people with 4000 jumps do you see who still can't land a parachute properly? it's cause they haven't built this foundation. so if you think you've mastered everything on your parachute and need a new, smaller, more high performance one, ask yourself if you've really wrung it out and are smooth with your current canopy.

alright, i'm done. i'm sure i missed some aspect but hopefully this makes sense cause this was waaayyy longer than i wanted it to be.

peace...

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[Widgeon 0]

Digging out can also put you in the ground that much harder. The technique that gets tossed around here from time to time about recovery arc manipulation actually requires you to be in the earlier part of the powerband. By giving input to force recovery, you yourself will be traveling at a higher speed than your wing momentarily..... hopefully level (or in some instances, climbing) flight will be acheived. It's a very advanced technique, and extremely dangerous if not executed perfectly. You stand to be more consistent(and safe) just learning to be as smooth and do as little as possible to disturb the energy you went to all the trouble making in that turn in the first place.

A high speed flat turn is another solution. This can be taught by a qualified coach and can avoid the situation I described above. It can give you the extra few feet that can make the difference between a close call, and impact.

Get some coaching, fly safe....

[dharma1976 0]

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Digging out can also put you in the ground that much harder. The technique that gets tossed around here from time to time about recovery arc manipulation actually requires you to be in the earlier part of the powerband. By giving input to force recovery, you yourself will be traveling at a higher speed than your wing momentarily..... hopefully level (or in some instances, climbing) flight will be acheived. It's a very advanced technique, and extremely dangerous if not executed perfectly. You stand to be more consistent(and safe) just learning to be as smooth and do as little as possible to disturb the energy you went to all the trouble making in that turn in the first place.

A high speed flat turn is another solution. This can be taught by a qualified coach and can avoid the situation I described above. It can give you the extra few feet that can make the difference between a close call, and impact.

Get some coaching, fly safe....

is that the one like looks kinda like a really deep carve except that you had to do it to keep yourself out of the ground???

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.