Pilot 150 to X-fire 2 139

[pjc 0]

Just wanted some opinions on this. The Pilot has a very short recovery arc and the x-fire 2 much longer as I understand, but this also allows more time to let the canopy fly before planing out hence could be seen as safer as manouvres will be initiated much higher. Wingloading = 1.37on P150 and 1.47 on x-fire 2 139.
Constructive comments appreciated!!

[phoenixlpr 0]

I fly a Pilot150 (~WL1.5) and a Cobalt135 (~WL1.6)sometimes alternately.

They do fly, land, flare differently.

I don't know what you expect to hear.

Switching from canopy A to B does not seem to be too complicated if you take to learn the new one.

[chachi 0]

no one on the internet is able to access whether you are ready for a new canopy or not. i will say that if you have satisfied billvon's downsizing checklist found here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47 then you are probably better off than most.

my advice will come if you do. before you go start hucking turns in a field ensure you have done suitable performace drills up high. go do hop 'n pop at full altitude and spend a couple skydives refining the same turn you do for swooping and figure out your altitude loss. then a hundred feet higher and start and work down. the crossfire is a progressive swooping canopy at any loading and you are already in the performance envelope that has the ability to really get yourself hurt. ask a couple af good pilots that you trust the opinion of and see if you're ready for the platform change, as well as a downsize.

[dharma1976 0]

when i had a simlar question I went to my s&TA he said "you are ready" and then followed it up with"why the fuck di dyou ask me that are you nervous"

so two sides to taht are...if you have to ask...you might not be ready...but then ask you might be ready ...but talk to your local canopy geeks...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[pjc 0]

Thanks for the comments! My canopy coaches comment was: "sounds like a reasonable downsize" and I'm Ok with most of Bill Von's checklist, not landed on rears or done a downwinder but plenty of no winders. Really I'm just after an idea of how different the canopies are likely to fly and anything to watch out for.

[AggieDave 6]

Instead of changing plane forms and size, why don't you get your hands on a XF2 149 and put some jumps on it? That way you'll have a more accurate representation of what the canopy flies like instead of going "wow, this is cool and fast." Of course it will be, its smaller.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[pjc 0]

Thats a good idea! I was going to go for a x-fire 2 149 so as not to downsize & go fully elliptical in 1 hop - but a well respected rigger told me that I would be wasting my time going from a P150 to a x-fire 149 and would be better off with a 139.

[AggieDave 6]

That's fine if someone told you it would be a waste of time, but how much of a waste is it? Contact Johnny1488 or Wyat in San Diego and get a demo in. At the very least it'll be worth your time to move slowly. A metal pin in a bone costs a LOT of money and wastes a lot more of your time.

Sure, its just 10sq ft, but its still 10sq ft. Do what you want, its your jumping future and your body. You might jump the 139 and be fine or you might jump the 149 and hook in. You never know.

Edit: Sorry, overlooked you're in the UK. I understand that its much harder to get demos over there. If you can get a 149 I'd say jump it. If you can't, go do some altitude clear and pulls and be very careful.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Dazzle 0]

You could get a demo 149, put a number of jumps on it so you can see the difference and then have a demo on a 139. Not the best time of year to get a demo and put jumps on it in the UK but youmight get lucky - it's not like there is any rush at the moment.

On the basis of your profile seems like a sensible progression.

[Pendragon 1]

Xfire2 is a nice canopy, and IMHO:

Doesn't turn or feel as twitchy on toggles as a Stilletto, but dives more on risers.

Nice openings

Stable in half-brakes and doesn't dive all over the place

I feel it's the easiest of the Mamba_/Katana/Xfire2 set to handle, and the most forgiving, and a good 1st elliptical

However, 1.47 sounds a little light - by that I mean you won't be getting the most out of it. The guys at Icarus told me at least 1.6, with 1.8-2.0 being the optimum. Trust me, the Xfire2 takes on a whole new meaning when stepping up from 1.6-1.8, something I did when I demoed it. Its much more fun!

Personally I would recommend getting a smaller tapered canopy first (Sabre2/Safire2/Pilot) first before switching to a Xfire2, and get used to the effects of a more serious wingloading first, and possibly (after many skydives) going for a smaller Xfire2 than you're currently proposing then. If you're into swooping, the Sabre2 might be a good bet in the meantime; it's certainly the more aggressive of its peers, and dives more.

Do keep it out the corner though!

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[brianfry713 0]

Sabre 2's are great at digging out of the corner.

BASE 1224, Senior Parachute Rigger, CPL ASEL IA, AGI, IGI
USPA Coach & UPT Tandem Instructor, PRO, Altimaster Field Support Representative

[marks 0]

Quote

not landed on rears

try it, it is something you need to do anyway. try it on the canopy you are used to.

landing with rears is not a big deal, it is more a big deal in your head. kinda like when you did your first low hop and pop.

• Quote

[vdschoor 0]

Quote

Just wanted some opinions on this. The Pilot has a very short recovery arc and the x-fire 2 much longer as I understand...

Ok.. you answered your own question already.. that is exactly what you need to look out for when you try the new canopy.

demo a 149 and then get a 139, that way you can compare the two canopies better and get used to it without really increasing your wingloading.

Also.. like others said.. I think the CF2 is more of a high performance canopy and the recommendations of 1.6 sound like you might want to look at a canopy in between..

Try the Sabre2 150 and 135 as well.. the openings are different, but the Sabre2 is a swoop monster as well and a great canopy to learn to swoop on.

[dharma1976 0]

Germain got me landing on my rears early this spring..he said it was hooking for rears...

I have been using em since (except when I need to bail which is somewhat rare these days) and it really changed my distance :-)

Dave

Quote

Quote

not landed on rears

try it, it is something you need to do anyway. try it on the canopy you are used to.

landing with rears is not a big deal, it is more a big deal in your head. kinda like when you did your first low hop and pop.

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Vectracide 0]

Hey PJC.

I flew a Xfire2 119 for a couple years, and I cannot tell you how much I recommend this canopy for what you are looking for. The Xfire2 has an amazing opening, awesome long spot comebacks (down to 13 fps on mine), manageable front riser pressure, medium recovery arc that allowed enough time for adjustments, rear riser input is generous with lift and gives enough warning before high speed stall and the flare...my oh my...the flare.....more than any canopy I have flown in its class. I can't tell you how many people said to me when I was flying that canopy, "dude....I can't believe how that canopy shuts down, like NOW."

If you want to learn how to swoop, and learn it with a greater error of margin, try the Xfire2 and do what Chachi stated at altitude before trying anything near solid objects....like the ground.

------------------------------

Controlled and Deliberate.....

[pjc 0]

Thanks a lot everyone - Exactly the type of input and good advice I was looking for
btw - I heard the Icarus manufacture in 2 sites, 1 in Spain and I think 1 in RSA or NZ, anyone know if this is true and if there is any difference in the quality or performance of what they produce??

[Vectracide 0]

Icarus did manufacture in different locations when I researched them, but as of now, I do not know if they do. All I can say to you, is if you plan on buying an Icarus product, you will be better served buying a used canopy as compared to getting a new one. Find someone in your area that flies one and give it a try, but remember, up high....clear and pull at full altitude is where its at to learn a new canopy. If you do buy one, I would try to get one that was made in Spain. Especially for you at your location.

B.

------------------------------

Controlled and Deliberate.....

[Pendragon 1]

AFAIK only in Spain - they had quality issues with other factories so they ceased production elsewhere

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[jheadley 0]

Quote

Instead of changing plane forms and size, why don't you get your hands on a XF2 149 and put some jumps on it? That way you'll have a more accurate representation of what the canopy flies like instead of going "wow, this is cool and fast." Of course it will be, its smaller.

VERY good advice. Even though I'm considering a 135 for my next canopy purchase, I've demoed 5 different 150's (my current size), and just ordered another 150 demo. It's the only way you can compare accurately one canopy to another. In fact I think I've found all the performance increase I need in a XF2 149, going from a Sabre 2 150. You may find the same thing.

[pjc 0]

I would love to try a 149, but due to the fact that most people only jump x-fires at higher wingloadings, 149's are rocking horse s**t around here! I would order a demo from Icarus, but afaik you have to pay quite a lot and you only get the canopy for 1 weekend in which case there is a very high likelyhood of not getting to jump it (at this time of year in the UK). I think I'll try out this 139 on a couple of high clear & pull's & see how it goes!!!

[Fast 0]

Quote

I would love to try a 149, but due to the fact that most people only jump x-fires at higher wingloadings, 149's are rocking horse s**t around here! I would order a demo from Icarus, but afaik you have to pay quite a lot and you only get the canopy for 1 weekend in which case there is a very high likelyhood of not getting to jump it (at this time of year in the UK). I think I'll try out this 139 on a couple of high clear & pull's & see how it goes!!!

I jump a XF2-139 and used to jump a Saber 1-150. I don't think there is a huge difference between standard flight. You really start to notice it when you are doing riser turns though. If you are doing front riser dives on your pilot you will probably be cool with the XF2 but I would go back to doing straight in approaches for awhile. Ya know, get used to the canopy and all. Then work back up and get comfortable with it.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[pjc 0]

Most of my current landings are 180 FR initated from 400' Its a real struggle to keep the pilot in a dive for that long. I need to go from full brake to full double fronts, then let it turn real slow. Usually I have to keep some double front on as I come out to stop it planing out too high. I am not expecting that of the x-fire at all!! I'm going right back to square 1 with straight ins first & lots of altitude work before I start building back up to 90's. I'm actually quite looking forward to it!!

• Quote

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Usually I have to keep some double front on as I come out to stop it planing out too high. I am not expecting that of the x-fire at all!!

You're expecting wrong.

You can and will "airball" swoops on a XF2. You can even do that on a Velocity or a VX. A canopy is not a fix for improper piloting. Having jumped Pilots, Sabre2s, Safire2s and others I have learned that they will all swoop and swoop well. They also require good technique to swoop well. Otherwise you'll fight the canopy the entire way to the ground.

I'm not trying to be mean, just trying to let you know that there is no magic genie in the bottle. You can not make up for technique fully with a canopy choice. You still have to learn how to fly correctly and fly in a manner that makes *that* canopy perform. That's what I've spent the last 5 years trying to learn. I still have a LONG way to go with that. I too have a new canopy now and I nearly feel like I'm starting all over.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[dharma1976 0]

altough aggie did make fun of me for berating a cop I am totally with him on this one...

in fact I usually wind up and wound up on double fronts on the canopies I am flying currently and the sabre 2s I was flying previously

but it is not to keep my from hi-jacking it is to keep building speed once I am on line and to stop oversteer

have you considered canopy coaching? It does make a huge difference to have some oen spend a day with you and work on your set up and turns...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[pjc 0]

I've done a fair bit of canopy coaching - both workshops and 1 on 1 coaching and its something I intend to keep up. Thanks for all the info and advice - just need the time & weather to get some jumps in now

• Quote