Swooping by beeps

[Peej 0]

I was standing at boarding point this weekend with my TI, passenger and fellow jumpers. I'd just put my new Neptune on my wrist and someone said "how are you going to hear it beep from there?" - meaning using the swoop alarms to initiate my turn.

I said i didn't believe in swooping by beeps and i think that hearing a beep and pulling on a riser is definatey not the right thing to do, this imo of course.

I use my Neptune to a point, then eyeball the actual initiation point from there. I do a combination of 90's and 180's.

I also thought about posting this after seeing this post from Billvon in a fatality thread:

BILLVON: "No doubt there is value in using a digital altimeter. But the issue here was best summed up by Twardo - you must have enough experience to not NEED that altimeter before you go big.

A jumper who does not need his altimeter may someday get beeps at a funny altitude; altimeters fail and can be misused. At which point he says "what the fuck? Is this thing broken?" lands and figures out the problem.

A jumper who relies on his altimeter may someday hear the same beep, haul on a front riser - and end up being discussed here."


So, what are your thoughts? Advice for me? Is swooping by beeps a good thing? Can the beeps be used to improve swooping technique when used as a guide only?

Or are the invention of beeps for swooping going to breed a swooper dependant on audible warnings and possibly lead to more injuries? Kind of like how people are so dependant on audibles on skydives... how many times have you seen that: jumper either sets an audible wrong or forgets to change break off alti and suddenly the thing beeps at 8g's and they turn and track.

Thanks

edited for clarity

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[CanuckInUSA 0]

You better NOT be insinuating that I advocate "swooping by beeps" since that is complete an utter bull crap since I never said such a thing and I challenge you to prove where I said such nonsense.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Pendragon 1]

There's always a danger of taking quotes out of context, especially from the internet...

From my own experience (and I'm nowhere near being a great swooper) I used a Neptune to help me learn; by that I mean initiating up high and measuring my altitude loss - also noticing that the canopy would often climb after and compensating for that. I would then add a couple hundred feet and slowly bring it down, using it to help dial in the "sight picture" if you like.

I don't believe you can go to rotations over 90 degrees without having a good concept of what the recovery arc looks like as it becomes disorientating as you're not so continually focussed on the area in which you're going to land: by necessity, you're facing the wrong way to start on a 180 for example. If you use "beeps" to do it, all you're doing is merely yanking and hoping. Espcially on longer-recover arc canopies and/or higher rotations this can be very dangerous as there is considerable (by that I mean enough to break youself completely) headroom in which to get the canopy to dive more/less by how quickly the riser input is put in. Beeps aren't going to help you alone.

I have an audiable with swoop alarms mounted on my helmet. It works well; but they only confirm what I already know.

"Beeps" can also bring (over)confidence to all sorts of situations, and as such should always be treated with caution. You've only got to scan the forums, ask around etc to hear of some story where over-reliance has contributed to a serious accident.

BTW - these electronic gizmos (providing they haven't crashed!) are fantastically accurate - they can be easily misused or simply placed in the wrong place to get a correct reading however.

All IMHO of course.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[Peej 0]

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You better NOT be insinuating that I advocate "swooping by beeps" since that is complete and utter bull crap since I never said such a thing and I challenge you to prove where I said such nonsense.

Whoah, Jesus, easy there big guy, did i say that you advocate swooping by beeps? I thought i made it quite clear that my post came from a discussion I had with some peeps at my DZ on Sunday.

I saw Bill's post in the fataility thread and thought it bore some relevance to the discussion i'd had. I've edited your point out for clarity. And for the record, I really respect the opinions and views you share on this board. Now, can we kiss and make up?

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[kamalasound 0]

I would rather say that swooping without beeps is somewhat dangerous.
The eye leads but the beep confirms and I have seen many more swoopers hit the ground without beepers than the ones with.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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can we kiss and make up?

I don't kiss men, but since I try not to hold a grudge on people, consider us made up.

My post in that incidents forum was related with another person who appeared to be saying that using digital altimeters was a mistake and that's when I chose to confront him telling him that many in the swooping community thought otherwise. At which point BillVon stepped in and made his comments. Since I wasn't in 100% disagreement with Bill, I decided not to debate the issue with him in the incidents forum. But he was the one who brought up the "swooping by beeps" topic.

My view is that there is no harm in using any tool that can help you achieve your goal just as long as you're not totally dependent on that tool. I choose to use a visual digital altimeter since I'm often swooping into some sort of swoop course. The visual digital altimeter helps myself gauge the progress I'm making (remember every jump is different) and I'm going to start my turn (or abort it if need be) once I'm over the course and not when an audible altimeter starts beeping.

Sometimes I think we argue here on the net for the sake of arguing (I'm just as guilty of this as the next person). For the life of me, I can't possibly think that a swooper would haul down on a front riser simply because their audible is beeping. I've got to think that somewhere along this scenario the swooper will "look" at the ground and say, "looks good, let's do it" or "hmmm .... something is wrong, time to abort". But since people like arguing here on the net, someone invariably feels the need to take the side that "swoopers" are dumb and that they just haul down on the risers when their audibles go off.

I know we swoopers have issues (we sure as hell aren't normal), but the non-swoopers sure seem to like to group us into something that we're often not and they don't bother to ask us why we do some of the things that we do. My visual digital altimeter is a very important tool for my swooping. Can I function without it? Yes I can, I did it earlier this summer during practice one day when I forgot my altimeter at home. But I don't like it. My swoops are a million times better when I'm armed with the proper information of knowing what kind of turn I can make when I get to my setup point. Then of course once we start diving our canopies it's all about visual references of knowing when to get off of the front risers.

Time to step away from the keyboard for a while ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[PhreeZone 20]

Believe it or not there are people out there that are trusting the new generation of digital altimeters more then they are trusting their visual sight picture. One of the fatilities this year had switched to a Nepture early this year and was using it to dial in his swoops. He would fly his base leg and then at X altitude he'd throw his turn. He'd come out 20 feet high so he'd move the altitude down by 20 feet. Instead of learning the visual sight picture that was telling him that his 270 was too fast or too slow, he trusted the altimeter and would make his turns based on it. In the end he threw a turn too low and died from the injuries from it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[davelepka 4]

Thats the exact scenario that I was worried about when they first came out. Add to it outside factors like density altitude, speed entering the turn, new line sets (or other trim changes), a new RDS, new (longer or shorter) risers, and soem shit I can;t even think of, and the beeps stop being your friend.

The other thing is, doesn't anyone just want to leanr to do things on their own? How about not being a pussy and needing help to look at the ground? What ever happened to self sufficiency?

Between GPS, packers, and beepers that tell you waaaay too much, I'm surpirsed more people don't wander into spinning props seeing as how helpless they are.

"Why can't everyone be smart? Rike me..."

[phoenixlpr 0]

I have a Neptune. Once I got -40m on the ground after landing. It made me think.

I have an Optima too. When Optima beep on plane ride Neptune should show 300 +/- 5m.

[mattjw916 2]

I use Optima beeps + eyes personally. The beeps ensure the repeatability of the setup and the turn initiation altitude and the eyes ensure that the prevailing conditions and other anomalies don't put me in the corner.

My $0.02 is that both the brain and a computer can fail so I might as well use both tools available to me to mitigate the risk of going splat.

That said, just because I hear my final turn alarm doesn't mean I blindly yank a riser and hope for the best. Sometimes it just looks bad so I skip it and *gasp* land straight in. ;)

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Chapsta 0]

I've been using the beeps for a little while now (optima)... I like to start diving a little over 700 ft. these days, but I don't set the optima at 700. I've got a beep at a grand for set-up support and one a little lower than 700 just in case my dumb-ass decides to throw a little low for some reason. I really can't believe anybody would use the thing as a 'pull now' type device.

I dig the optima/neptune technology... let's just try to use it the right way!

Chaps

Carpe diem

[andyflylife 0]

As I previously said in a recent thread topic....

I've been using my optima for the last 100 or so jumps plus a Suunto Vector for the last 50 ish. I got the Optima as a method of helping me plan and carry out my setup and turn more consistently, as i started to find myself either turning much to high or a little bit too low. Too low was a lack of discipline when i screwed up my setup.
At first i thought 'could i be to dependent on instruments?' But using the combination of the Suunto and the Optima has vastly improved my swoop progression.
Far from relying on the two i use my eyes for watching traffic, position rough altitude judgment...etc, then the suunto to clarify the alti.
The optima is then a time out beep to move to the next phase of setup, and my final set turn height is not the lowest i can possibly turn, it allows me a little flexibility which is where my eye judgment has the final say.
Seems to work for me, swooping is so 3 dimensional that you couldn't possibly rely on instruments, but they make it safer IMHO.

To add to that, as im jumping an original Sabre with its short recovery arc, to be able to dial in a swoop just with a digital turn height would be almost impossible. I usually find myself finishing the last part of the dive still on double fronts so releasing them is pure judgment.
Again the instruments (Optima and Suunto) are just tools which allow me to make more accurate setups and also give me a timeout to stop me going low.

Blues

"swooper 24/7, 365!"
ME on Myspace
My Project playlist

[dharma1976 0]

its funny how many little decisions go into one swoop

mine starts at loading the plane where there are no beeps

yeah my 270 starts at around 650 or so or so being the prime operative words...cause there is no perfect altitude no exact hey I can make my turn here...cause guess what every fucking turn is different...avery one is filled with adjustments every harness turn not exact...I think that most people who actually use a optima who know what they are doinguse it primarily for setup points only...and the beep and turners need to be told hey now thats not how we use our tools...

I am actually kinda happy, I bought an optima put it on my helmet with the protective shield on it and it distracted me so much with its stupid beeping that I fucked up my set up and wound up so soaking wet in the pond as a result that it broke...

the beeps were not cool for me...its neptune for setup points, eyes from there...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[diablopilot 2]

I always swoop by beeps, preferably with my eyes closed.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Peej 0]

But then again you've always been the most hardcore badass out there JP

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[Peej 0]

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For the life of me, I can't possibly think that a swooper would haul down on a front riser simply because their audible is beeping.

I would hope so too. And i agree that an experienced swooper wouldn't. But what about a junior jumper, someone just learning to swoop? Like i said, i've seen people with a couple hundred dives just turn and track in the the middle of a skydive when their audible beeps at the wrong time.

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[Peej 0]

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...and the beep and turners need to be told, hey now that's not how we use our tools...

Agreed.

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the beeps were not cool for me...its neptune for setup points, eyes from there...

Agreed again.

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[dharma1976 0]

and thats how the big boys win the money by breathing through there eyes while they are closed and going big on the ranch pond :-P

Hope your travels are well JP

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Fast 0]

I only this year got a neptune. I don't even look at it a whole lot, just to get a rough idea of my position in the pattern. I still swoop by sight.

Maybe thats holding me back, but so far its done pretty good in terms of keeping me alive.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[chachi 0]

using the beeps as a warning of your altitude or using your neptunes visual component as a warning to your altitude are the same things. who the eff swoops by one alone anyhow. neptunes provide accurate height knowledge so that you can use all of your tools to make the gates. wether you hear the beep or see the altitude you are going to make the same decisions. either one should be considered standard equipment in a serious swoopers gear bag.

fyi - jay mo swoops with beeps...

[Cacophony 0]

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fyi - jay mo swoops with beeps...

fyi - alex o swoops visual. I agree. Its all the same.

[djd 0]

I love it how people jump down each others throats on here. everyone is different and learns different whats good for someone is not always good for someone else.
im lucky enough to have had quite a bit of coaching from some of the top pilots in our sport, most of it free through the british army...as i said lucky...the way they teach is or was when i did it, alltitude, lanes then gates. once you got yr turn yr comfortable with the height loss in yr head then you go to lanes and so on over a period of time.
they all, bar none would recomend a digital alti....
none have ever mentioned swooping by beeps.
but all would say use the technology available its there to help..
they also say "but dont trust it 100% its digital and it will go wrong at some point, so make sure yr ready for that."

I tried with a neptune in my ear for setup beeps and just didnt like it, i still had 1 on my wrist as well for visuall.

i know people who swoop purely on eye and are awsome swoopers doing a 1000 jumps a year or so for me who does a lot less, i find it hard to judge an accurate height of 800' or so which i start my 450 turn from, i can guess but thats not really my cup of tea,
i just brought a VISO, done 40 odd jumps with that and im likeing it a lot. it has a speed to time thingy on it , so you can work out yr most effective turn and canopy speed. if you havent tried one you should if you dont like it try something else...:)

im learning gates now and the pond and find im setting up slightly different on each swoop due to wind or whatever, me just getting it wrong useually. so my altitude to turn is a bit different each time maybe a little lower so i have to turn a little quicker or higher so have to get it diving a bit more so beep and pulling certainly wouldnt work for me.

I will quote Chris Lynch "if you know yr turn height and make a consistant turn everytime then you SHOULD never be the person who hits the ground at the same time as his canopy and dies, you may still get hurt but hey thats swooping"

im probably going to get slatted now so am going to put my armour on....safe swoops

i just posted this too. my pal freestyling at perris.

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=5157

[dharma1976 0]

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I love it how people jump down each others throats on here.

Hey what the fuck is that supposed to mean

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[raymod2 1]

Try reading the following article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_perception

There you will learn that there are many cues that humans use to perceive depth. Most, however, are relative and can't give you absolute information (ie. they can tell you that one object is closer than another but they cannot tell you how far away an object is). Many cues can be rendered useless due to environmental conditions. Some cues, such as stereopsis, are useful only at short distances. Probably the primary cue that swoopers use is familiar size. A familiar object, such as a tree, subtends a smaller arc on the retina the farther away it is. But this cue requires familiarity with the objects in the environment. Jump in a new location and this cue can be severely hampered.

That is why we use instruments to supplement our depth perception. And, no, the fact that you are still alive and you never used one does not mean that you are Superman or that digital altimeters are for pussies.

[dharma1976 0]

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Try reading the following article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_perception

There you will learn that there are many cues that humans use to perceive depth. Most, however, are relative and can't give you absolute information (ie. they can tell you that one object is closer than another but they cannot tell you how far away an object is). Many cues can be rendered useless due to environmental conditions. Some cues, such as stereopsis, are useful only at short distances. Probably the primary cue that swoopers use is familiar size. A familiar object, such as a tree, subtends a smaller arc on the retina the farther away it is. But this cue requires familiarity with the objects in the environment. Jump in a new location and this cue can be severely hampered.

That is why we use instruments to supplement our depth perception. And, no, the fact that you are still alive and you never used one does not mean that you are Superman or that digital altimeters are for pussies.

I use a neptune man and never said they were for pussies...I was making a joke...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.