Simple Crossfire Question

[airborne82nd 0]

if a Crossfire 1 is loaded 1.6 and a crossfire 2 is loaded also a 1.6

given identical conditions weather winds the same pilot and say doing a 270 at the best altitute.

hypothetical speaking i know you would start your 270 higher on the crossfire 2 i understand it dives longer.

i am not sure if the question can be answered but given all things being the same how much more would the crossfire 2 out perform the crossfire 1???

why do people keep their crossfire 1's when they demo the crossfire 2/

what would be the advantage of staying on a crossfire 1.

thanks much to who ever helps me out on this one

c

[morris 0]

Till yesterday I would have answered you that the 1 has an even longer (too long) way for opening and that it (the 1) dives longer. I thought that they made the 2 because the openings of the 1 were a little too long and that they though the 1 would have been a little too aggressive for the average crossfire pilot. But yesterday a friend of mine who isn`t that experienced (at least from my point of view) jumped a 1 the same seize as his 2 and the 1 was definitly slower and didn´t dive as much. I expected it to be opposite (maybe something is wrong with the canopy or I`m wrong) but I`m not a crossfire expert. Nevertheless I´m gonna contact a guy from the german association who`s the one to clear every chute for the german market, he will know, I`ll let you know...

[airborne82nd 0]

cool thanks let me know

i was under the impression that the 1 was slower, dived less, had less glide, and about the same flare power then the 2

the 2 is turns faster more twitchy which i dont like.

but i am looking for one or the other right now

[superstu 0]

have you been able to jump the xfire 1? a lot of it, as you might already know, is personal perception and preference. i jumped both a 1 and a 2 and picked the xfire1 just because it felt better to me.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[airborne82nd 0]

ok cool why did it feel better can you expand on that???

thank you

[dharma1976 0]

from what a few of my friends and people I deal with as far as gear tell me ... that ist depends on the xfire 1 you get whether it was made a certain factory or another...

try em out...its your call man...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[deathtrap 0]

Don't forget about the incredible collapsible canopy option attached to the front risers of the Xfire 1...

[BMFin 0]

  Quote

from what a few of my friends and people I deal with as far as gear tell me ... that ist depends on the xfire 1 you get whether it was made a certain factory or another...

try em out...its your call man...

Dave

Yeah.. I have never jumped either one (though I just bought XF2)

But according to this thread the xfire1 had three different linetrims. So obviously it would change the characteristics...

[Guinness_fr 0]

  Quote

Don't forget about the incredible collapsible canopy option attached to the front risers of the Xfire 1...

nice way to put it...

mwahahaha....

[rhys 0]

  Quote

Don't forget about the incredible collapsible canopy option attached to the front risers of the Xfire 1...

only on a small few made by precision.

i'm sure all those ones were recalled and i did 800 jumps on my crossfire 1 was mint. Never jumped a XF2 though!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[deathtrap 0]

  Quote

  Quote

Don't forget about the incredible collapsible canopy option attached to the front risers of the Xfire 1...

only on a small few made by precision.

I don't buy that, I would bet any amount of money that was the Icarus way of solving the problem, blame somebody else.... Precision was just putting the canopies together not designing them...

[rhys 0]

How is it that when I say something Another party(icarus) gets blamed for it?

I think they did very well to resolve the problem and the vast majority of the problem canopies were made by Precision at the time!

red below the service bulliten from 2001


new bulletin regarding the Crossfire was issued today. The URL is http://www.icaruscanopies.com/bulletin2.htm. Below is the bulletin in full.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Product Safety Bulletin

Product Safety Bulletin #20011004

Crossfire Safety Bulletin #2

Limited quantity of canopies grounded until further notice
Limited quantity of canopies subject to S&TA approval before use

Date of Notice: October 04, 2001
Effective: Immediately
Applicability: Attached lists of Icarus Crossfire Canopies
Compliance: Mandatory or Subject to S&TA approval
Restriction: Attached list of canopies known to have manufacturing tolerance issues are grounded until further notice.

Subsequent list of Crossfire’s which may be affected are subject to S&TA or DZO approval for before use.

Exclusions: European Built Crossfire’s are not affected (as attached to this bulletin)

Canopies approved for use by S&TA’s

Resolution: Canopies to be certified as being within Manufacturing tolerance standards and/or repaired if necessary
Information: Refer Attached Document
Additional Information: Contact:
Simon Mundell
Icarus Canopies,
1627, US 1,
Sebastian,
FL 32958, USA

Ph. (561) 581-8131,
Fax (561) 581-8132

simon@icaruscanopies.com


Background:

Since our Safety Bulletin dated September 14, 2001 we have received several calls from Crossfire owners reporting instability with their canopy.

With these incidents coming to light, we feel it necessary to issue a more specific warning with regards to canopies which may be affected and a mandatory grounding of those parachutes known to be affected by the anomaly as detailed in Safety Bulletin #20010914 dated Sept 14. (Refer attached for serial number listings).

Required Action:

Grounded Canopies (attached as annex two to this safety bulletin)

Parachutes with serial numbers attached to this list that are known to have an anomaly are grounded until further notice. Refer attached serial number list titled Grounded Canopies for further details.

Limited Grounding Subject to S&TA and/or DZO approval (attached as annex three to this safety bulletin)

Crossfire’s on the list of canopies deemed as POTENTIALLY AFFECTED are subject to S&TA and/or DZO approval before flight.

S&TA’s must be familiar with the skydivers jumping the potentially affected Crossfire’s (refer attached list) and ensure that the jumper is experienced and capable of making decisions regarding the reliability of his or her parachute. Additionally, they must have done a minimum number of jumps to have PREVIOUSLY flown the canopy in turbulent conditions and on front risers. They must meet these requirements and have not experienced any anomaly on their canopy in order for the canopy to be approved for flight.

Attached (annex one) is a detailed explanation to ensure S&TA’s, DZO’s and users are well-informed and capable of making educated decisions.

This bulletin and the canopy serial number lists are also available to view on our website www.icaruscanopies.com.

For more information contact:

Simon Mundell
Icarus Canopies, Inc.
1627 US Highway 1
Sebastian, Florida 32958
Telephone 561-581-8131



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Annex One

Overview:

Following is a detailed explanation to ensure a good understanding of the problem and to avoid bias or misinterpretation.

The Icarus Crossfire was designed to be the highest performing non-cross braced canopy available, able to achieve realms of flight previously considered impossible on non-cross braced parachutes with a lot of effort being put into the smoothest openings available. It’s fair to say that it’s lived up to that claim.

During the canopy’s testing program and subsequent release there were no anomalies apparent with the design. When we learned that some canopies in the field started to experience buffeting we implemented a minor change to the canopy’s trim in January 2001 and production continued.

Contrary to some statements made in various public forums there have been no changes made to the canopy’s nose design or the planform shape.

Since the trim was modified, we documented a few isolated incidents of instability on Crossfire’s. Upon inspecting these canopies, each was confirmed to be the result of manufacturing the canopy out of tolerance. Upon re-building or reworking the affected canopies, the anomaly disappeared.

With the high number of canopies in the field operating normally we did not feel it was widespread, and saw it as a limited quality issue. Testing and investigating was underway.

After the incident at the Pond Swooping Nationals, additional calls were received about instability and buffeting on some canopy’s prompting our service bulletin of Sept 14 urging caution on front risers.

The problem:

The Icarus Crossfire is a high performance, constant cell aspect ratio, fully surface shaped, truly elliptical, inflatable wing. The issue with such modern designs is they are far more susceptible to trim and wing shape variances than is the case with older design canopies. This appears to be the crux of this issue.

Upon inspecting canopies that experienced buffeting or instability, inconsistent manufacturing tolerances are apparent in each of them.

Safety bulletin #20010914 Sept 14 was applied to Crossfire’s built from the specific location where these tolerance issues were apparent. Also listed on the bulletin were canopies that had the old trim specifications irrelevant of their origin of manufacture.

During subsequent testing we have discovered parachutes with lesser degrees of manufacturing tolerance issues that experience these anomalies hence we expanded our warning (October 01) to include additional parachutes.

Excluded are those Crossfire’s built from our European facility, none of which have experienced any known anomaly or have any known tolerance issues.

Putting this in perspective:

Since the canopy’s trim was modified Jan ’01 we are yet to experience any problems with any canopies built at our European facility.

We have manufactured close on 1000 Crossfire’s to date. Of these, the majority (approx 600) have been produced at our European facility (those excluded from this bulletin). The balance (subject to this bulletin) were produced in the USA plus a handful from New Zealand.

We estimate the European built Crossfire’s will have done a combined total of between 100,000 and 200,000 jumps to date without experiencing any anomaly that we are aware of. Certainly a conclusive result by anyone’s standards.

Our European facility is unique in the fact that it produces canopies to NATO’s AQAP and ISO9000 quality assurance procedures. Their quality systems and manufacturing procedures set a standard in our industry. The quality inspection process that canopies go through during and after they are manufactured insure that each piece of a canopies construction fits to within very exacting tolerances.

This offers a significant insight into the relation between the anomaly and manufacturing tolerances.

How many canopies may be affected?

When we calculate the percentages from the respondents to our Safety Bulletin of Sept 14, between 5% and 7% of the 380 canopies on the bulletin have experienced issues or between 1.9% and 2.7% of the total number of Crossfire’s produced.

Once again we request that ALL Crossfire owners who have not yet responded to please contact our office or email crossfire@icaruscanopies.com so that we can complete an accurate record of all canopies.

Note: The majority of the NON-European built canopies that we have inspected have been produced within adequate tolerances. We are NOT implying that all the NON-European built canopies have unacceptable manufacturing tolerances.

What about other Icarus Canopies?

As overviewed previously, it has become apparent that the Crossfire requires exacting manufacturing standards. Other canopies in our range are not affected in the same way by such tolerance issues.

Note: Where we choose to manufacture our products has been changed and we do NOT see this issue as ongoing.

What Icarus is doing to resolve the situation:

At present we have a joint American-European team working in Europe consisting of test jumpers, riggers and Aeronautical Engineers.

Initially we have commenced the identification of each manufacturing inconsistency that exists in each parachute we have that experiences the anomaly. We are then test jumping each parachute and then slowly correcting the defects so we can accurately measure the points at which these inaccuracies create the anomaly.

This is more difficult than it may appear due to the compounding effect that can be created if several minor inconsistencies are all apparent in the one canopy. Any one or two minor (or major) inconsistencies may not have any affect. However, when several small tolerance issues are combined the anomaly may become apparent.

As a result we must be confident that we have identified each and every variable, individually and combined which creates the anomaly.

Once completed, we are endeavoring to produce a set of measuring standards by which the canopies can be compared. Canopies within the specifications will be approved for use. Those that fall outside these specifications will be repaired or replaced.

Additional to this process it is apparent that the Crossfire design, like any high performance piece of equipment, requires accuracy in its construction and therefore does not leave a lot of margin for mistakes.

As a result we are also experimenting with other minor adjustments that will ensure the rigidity in parachutes even if tolerance issues exist. This is proving very successful and may be applied to all Crossfire’s in the field and subsequent Crossfire’s that we manufacture. We are currently having success with trim options that appear to stabilize even the most affected canopies.

While we are achieving positive results, additional testing is being conducted before we are prepared to conclude our results.

New Canopies:

Whilst we are confident of the reliability of Crossfire’s produced within tight tolerances (including all of those from our European facility) we are also investigating possible modifications to the panel shaping to allow for an additional safety margin in the manufacturing process.


Recommendation:

We know that most of the Crossfire’s out there are solid canopies. We feel the balance is to let everybody know all the information we have available. Let people know the most likely affected serial numbers. Ask people to stay off front risers down low and avoid jumping in turbulent conditions.

A note on turbulence: Turbulence is a major factor in skydiving which kills or injures many skydivers every year. Pilots and Aeronautical Engineers will know the full extent of how serious turbulence can be. Do not underestimate how serious it can be regardless of the canopy you jump.

The majority of experienced Crossfire pilots know their canopies are safe. They have jumped them in countless meteorological conditions and performed countless riser maneuvers, others will not be sure and some will know their canopies are affected.

If you are in doubt or have limited experience on your canopy, then don’t jump your canopy until we resolve this issue as a precautionary measure.

Actions:

Limited Grounding Subject to S&TA and/or DZO approval (attached as annex three)

We have detailed this information to offer Crossfire users, S&TA’s and DZO’s the necessary information to make educated decisions.

We recommend to S&TA’s and DZO’s that they are familiar with the skydivers jumping the potentially affected Crossfire’s (refer attached list) and ensure that the jumper is experienced and capable of making decisions regarding the reliability of his or her parachute. Additionally, they must have done a minimum number of jumps to have PREVIOUSLY flown the canopy in turbulent conditions and on front risers. Should they meet these requirements and have not experienced any anomaly on their canopy then we see it as most appropriate that you and the jumper make an educated decision based on this body of information. Should they have limited experience either as a skydiver or on the canopy then we recommend temporarily grounding their canopy as a precautionary measure until such time as we can approve it for use or modify it if necessary.

Additionally the parachutes attached to this list that are known to have an anomaly are grounded until such time as we can approve them, alter them or replace them. (Attached as annex two).

If your canopy is on the list of grounded canopies please contact Icarus Canopies. We will work with you as much as possible and practical to ensure minimal disruption to your jumping. If your canopy is not on the list but you do detect flight anomalies please get in contact with us.

Note: Should our investigations offer any greater cause for concern we will not hesitate in implementing more stringent directives.

Trim Modifications: (attached as annex four)

Also attached is a list of canopies that are required to be returned to Icarus Canopies for a trim modification. These are canopies which have the old trim specifications.

Note: if your canopy has been re-lined since January 2001 it will have been fitted with the new trim and a re-trim is not needed.

Spectra Line - Line Set Change Required to VECTRAN:

Any Crossfire’s with Spectra line require a change to Vectran. Spectra line does shrink rapidly and may create issues as it ages.

Note: Vectran is mandatory due to its superior trim qualities

Contact Icarus Canopies for details.

Closing Note:

Icarus Canopies has enjoyed tremendous growth over the past couple of years. We have secured a market position which seemed impossible two years ago. We have achieved this by going the extra mile for our customers and by designing some of the most revolutionary canopies the industry has seen in a long time. We have invested a significant amount of time and money to achieve this position and we are not about to ignore our responsibilities as a leading canopy manufacturer.

We are not infallible, as no company is, nor are we a giant corporation with unlimited resources. Our goals extend well beyond our current market position and we fully intend to be around to realize them.

We appreciate your support and understanding and will do all in our power to fully resolve this situation as rapidly as possible.

Should you have any questions please don’t hesitate to contact:

Simon Mundell
Icarus Canopies,
1627, US 1,
Sebastian,
FL 32958, USA

Ph. (561) 581-8131,
Fax (561) 581-8132

simon@icaruscanopies.com



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Annex Two

Grounded Canopies

Crossfire’s with the serial numbers as listed below are grounded until further notice pending evaluation and approval or modification by Icarus Canopies

8139

8160

8186

8244

96612851

96612861

96612876

96612909

96612998

96613020

96613031

96613054

96613138

96613156

96613183

96613226

96613258

96613278

96613280



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Annex Three

Canopies subject to S&TA approval before use

Crossfire’s with the serial numbers as listed below are subject to S&TA approval before use.

8132
96612835
96612929
96612982
96613100

8138
96612836
96612931
96612983
96613101

8148
96612848
96612932
96612994
96613102

8178
96612852
96612933
96612995
96613103

8251
96612854
96612937
96612997
96613104

8259
96612855
96612938
96613008
96613105

8432
96612859
96612939
96613012
96613106

8433
96612860
96612941
96613013
96613107

8434
96612862
96612943
96613014
96613110

8435
96612865
96612944
96613015
96613111

8436
96612866
96612945
96613016
96613112

8438
96612871
96612946
96613019
96613113

92912345
96612872
96612947
96613028
96613114

94112350
96612873
96612948
96613032
96613116

94812367
96612874
96612949
96613033
96613118

96612340
96612875
96612950
96613034
96613123

96612790
96612877
96612951
96613042
96613124

96612801
96612878
96612952
96613043
96613125

96612802
96612879
96612953
96613044
96613126

96612803
96612880
96612954
96613045
96613127

96612804
96612881
96612955
96613046
96613128

96612805
96612882
96612960
96613047
96613129

96612806
96612883
96612961
96613048
96613130

96612807
96612896
96612965
96613049
96613131

96612808
96612897
96612966
96613050
96613132

96612809
96612898
96612967
96613051
96613136

96612810
96612899
96612968
96613068
96613137

96612811
96612900
96612969
96613085
96613139

96612812
96612904
96612970
96613087
96613140

96612813
96612905
96612971
96613088
96613141

96612814
96612908
96612972
96613089
96613142

96612815
96612910
96612973
96613091
96613143

96612816
96612911
96612974
96613092
96613144

96612817
96612912
96612975
96613093
96613145

96612818
96612914
96612976
96613094
96613146

96612819
96612919
96612977
96613095
96613147

96612820
96612924
96612978
96613096
96613148

96612821
96612926
96612979
96613097
96613149

96612822
96612927
96612980
96613098
96613150

96612823
96612928
96612981
96613099
96613151




96613152
96613224
96613277
96912365

96613153
96613225
96613282
96912367

96613154
96613227
96613283
96912368

96613155
96613228
96613284

96613157
96613229
96613285

96613158
96613230
96613286

96613159
96613231
96613306

96613165
96613232
96613317

96613166
96613233
96613318

96613167
96613234
96613319

96613168
96613235
96613321

96613169
96613236
96613322

96613170
96613238
96613323

96613171
96613239
96613324

96613176
96613243
96613325

96613177
96613244
96613326

96613178
96613245
96613327

96613184
96613247
96613328

96613185
96613248
96613329

96613186
96613249
96613330

96613187
96613250
96613331

96613188
96613251
96613332

96613189
96613252
96613333

96613194
96613253
96613334

96613195
96613255
96613335

96613196
96613257
96613337

96613197
96613259
96613345

96613198
96613260
96613346

96613199
96613261
96613347

96613200
96613263
96712347

96613201
96613264
96712357

96613202
96613265
96712364

96613203
96613267
96812349

96613204
96613269
96812356

96613205
96613270
96912348

96613206
96613271
96912355

96613215
96613272
96912358

96613221
96613273
96912360

96613222
96613275
96912362

96613223
96613276
96912363



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Annex Four

Canopies requiring re-trim

Crossfire’s with the serial numbers as listed below require a re-trim by Icarus Canopies before 31 October 2001.

Contact Icarus Canopies for details.

8132
50212674
96212746

8138
50212677
96212749

8139
50212689
96212752

8148
50212701
96312732

8178
50212701
96312738

8186
50212707
96312741

8244
50212707
96312747

8251
50212722
96312750

8259
50312558
96312753

8432
50312570
96312759

8433
50312576
96312765

8434
50312579
96312795

8435
50312600
96312807

8436
50312615
96312810

8438
50312618

50112562
50312621

50112574
50312624

50112580
50312630

50112586
50312648

50112601
50312654

50112607
50312657

50112613
50312666

50112619
50312675

50112622
50312684

50112646
50312705

50112667
50312705

50112676
50312717

50112679
50312729

50112685
96112739

50112694
96112748

50112703
96112751

50112718
96112754

50112727
96112766

50212560
96112784

50212560
96112793

50212572
96112796

50212575
96112808

50212617
96112811

50212623
96212737

50212659
96212740



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Annex Five

Canopies approved for full use

Crossfire’s with the serial numbers as listed below are NOT subject to this Safety Bulletin.

Note: Due to the quantity of serial numbers involved, the serial numbers below are listed in ranges (i.e. from & to).

ANY & ALL serial number listed WITHIN these ranges of serial numbers applies.

Serial Number Ranges

From
To

94312960
94313148

96112742
96112799

96112835
96112898

96112904
96112909

96112911
96112994

96113000
96113095

96113101
96113192

96113201
96113224

96212743
96212755

96212770
96212776

96212785
96212791

96212794
96212800

96212803
96212836

96212842
96212896

96212908
96212998

96213001
96213096

96213102
96213199

96213202
96213240

96312756
96312761

96312763
96312894

96312915
96312993

96313002
96313097

96313106
96313185

96313200
96313223

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[bak_peter 0]

Dude, that's the longest post i have ever seen

[dharma1976 0]

Ahhhh I love it how many times I have seen the icarus debate come up on this forum....

I love my Xfire2 119, and I love the service I recieved from Icarus...I tried a bunch of other canopies in the range and let me tell you I think I want to demo a Neos for shits and giggles....

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[rhys 0]

  Quote

Dude, that's the longest post i have ever seen
***

Yeah and i dunno how to coy and paste so i had to write it all out and type it up again

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

• Quote