learning to swoop

[youngpathy19 0]

i have 42 jumps and fly a wingloading of 1.16 i know that my experince is no where near what it needs to be in order to start swooping but i would like some ideas of what i could do to start learning how to swoop/carve. I have also wondering if yall think it is safe for me to go ahead and start trying flared turns on landings i can slow turn my canopy 180 degrees at 100 feet any input will be helpful

[marks 0]

with your jump numbers it is very important that you learn to fly your canopy, good for you for wanting too. This all should be done under the supervision of an instructor or a canopy coach that one of your instructors has ok'd for you.

[AggieDave 6]

The hardest thing to learn on the way to learning how to swoop is how to be consistant with your landing pattern and accuracy.

To have a good swoop you have to be consistant with your swoop. To be consistant you have to have a good pattern every time. If you can't hit your downwind, then your base leg at the right altitude at the right spot, then you won't be able to start your swoop at the right spot of your choice (i.e. to hit a course) at the right altitude.

So for now get an arial photo of your DZ and get it laminated. Get yourself a dry erase marker and draw every single landing pattern. Strive to fly what you drew (if safe). If you fly what you drew and you landed 20ft short then slide your entire pattern 20ft in the right direction and try again. Keep doing this every time. Eventually you'll get to where you can fly a nearly perfect pattern and land exactly where you planned.

You have to be able to do this or you won't be able to swoop accurately or safely.

While you work on your pattern and accuracy, then you can also work on the important aspects to canopy flight. That's learning every in and out of your canopy. How if flies in toggles, your stall point, your flare point, how to flat turn, do a "climbing" turn, a regular turn. How to bail out of a turn and how to bring your canopy out of a dive gently with the toggles. Then learn how your rears react as well. Do a lot of altitude clear and pulls, work on these things with a digital altimeter. Get to where you can do a flat turn in the least amount of altitude lost (180 degree turn). Then start working on double fronts, holding for 2 full seconds. See how long it takes for your canopy to naturally recover.


Doing all of those drills and getting your pattern under control will typically take someone about 150-200 jumps to really get a full understanding.

Many times we see people skipping steps. Those people either end up like me or someone else. If they end up like me then they're lucky. That means they didn't get hurt, but they've had to spend hundreds of jumps to relearn those skills and its taken MUCH longer to start to get an understanding.

If they're like someone else that means they got hurt, killed or killed someone else (i.e. canopy collision). Don't be that guy.

Good luck!



(Chachi, how's that post? More to your liking?)

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[bob.dino 1]

Nice post. Said all I wanted to say, better than I would have.

[dharma1976 0]

Quote

i have 42 jumps and fly a wingloading of 1.16 i know that my experince is no where near what it needs to be in order to start swooping but i would like some ideas of what i could do to start learning how to swoop/carve. I have also wondering if yall think it is safe for me to go ahead and start trying flared turns on landings i can slow turn my canopy 180 degrees at 100 feet any input will be helpful

start by learnign your pattern

then work your accuracy

then work your accuracy some more

then ask me for my mri's/ titanium/arthritic areas

then think about swooping :-P

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Vectracide 0]

Hey. If your #1 desire in skydiving is becoming a canopy pilot then look towards taking as many canopy coaching clinics as you can get your hands on. Be prepared to pay good money to become safe and confident. Find a canopy course as fast as you can. There are alot of good pilots at your DZ, some of which I have competed against. Take the time to introduce yourself to some of the swoopers there, and tell them what your goals and intentions are. Now finding the right person to ask might seem a quandary, so ask your DZO, the S&TA and perhaps your rigger which person on your DZ is the best person to take coaching from. Remember, not every person that you see swooping is the right person to take advice from. Be very selective to whom you let influence you. The best way to start the learning process is from someone that coaches for a living. Here are some names: Scott Miller...hes an East coaster. Brian Germain...another East coaster. JC in Perris...or any of the other guys there such as Clint Clawson (whom I took some coaching from)....the list goes on and on.

its important that you start with a known, reputable person to learn good habits first...and this will also give you the ability to see what is good and not so good advice for the future.

Of course....a boatload of clear and pulls from full altitude to play with your canopy is always a winner. Just don't do it with others at your skill level. 2 people in the air under canopy experimenting with new things is not a good combo.

Keep your head on a swivel, look before you act, know the limitations of your canopy thru experience, and have fun.

------------------------------

Controlled and Deliberate.....

[airborne82nd 0]

remeber swooping is for black belts and your a white belt you can not skip belts my self i am near brown belt some one like aggie dave is a 3rd degree black belt get the analogy.

i think its important for flar timing but no 180 degree carves. you can try some slow carves 90 toggle kindd of like turn in on final to get a bit of speed or get double front riser both pull them down a 1/4 way and then let them up around 30-40 ft but ask someone else about that. i never do that lots of guys do to get some speed and get more flare and glide.

you can do a 90 turn in also for a bit of speed but you have to leearn your canopy and you will likely down size.

rember canopys are not like cars they dont all drive the same at all.

if you do say a 90 toggle on a diablo it will recover in 50 ft say if you do it on my crossfire 2 139 a 90 at like 60 ft you will hit the ground.

so the question is relevant to your experience no 180 some light toggle carve some 90 finals and maybe some double fronts and its relavent to what canopy your flying currently.

dont ruch it you have lots of time you are only in competition with your self no one else/

[damion75 0]

Quote

you can try some slow carves 90 toggle kindd of like turn in on final to get a bit of speed or get double front riser both pull them down a 1/4 way and then let them up around 30-40 ft but ask someone else about that. i never do that lots of guys do to get some speed and get more flare and glide.

you can do a 90 turn in also for a bit of speed but you have to leearn your canopy and you will likely down size.

if you do say a 90 toggle on a diablo it will recover in 50 ft say if you do it on my crossfire 2 139 a 90 at like 60 ft you will hit the ground.

so the question is relevant to your experience no 180 some light toggle carve some 90 finals and maybe some double fronts and its relavent to what canopy your flying currently.

To the OP: Please take Agiiedave's advice and do not try any of the things which I think this poster is advocating.

I also really doubt that turning a Diablo (a canopy famous for losing height in turns) through 90 degrees at 50ft is a good idea... Play with your canopy, enjoy it and stop playing at around 2k so that you can start working on your pattern.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[airborne82nd 0]

stop flaming

haveflown lots diablos you can swing low and recover so quick the do not dive very short dive

my point is that differnt canopies fly totaly differnt

some new people think a canopy is a canopy like i did years ago.

of course take aggie daves advice i am trying to help him understand whats up.

as for double fronts again i dont know what jump numbers someone should do those lots of people are advocates for double fronts before you do 90 turns with toggle so i am asking is double fronts ok.

and poster what canopy are you on now???

[superstu 0]

to the original poster- check out the first few responses to your question. learning and mastering your flight path is critical. if you ever get a chance to see some of the PRO canopy piloting competitions see how many of them are spirling around not looking at their set up points...none. the same goes for the people at your DZ that continually land accurately and softly. so keep mastering that solid, predictable, flight path.
also, you have a ton of great pilots in your area between florida and georgia. people like the PD factory team, team fastrax, ian drennan, paul roussow, and so many others. hit them up for information and you won't be sorry.
hope this helps...

to airborne82nd- we are not "flaming" you, what we are trying to tell you is that the information you are TRYING to give out is not being communicated clearly enough. i've seen a lot of your posts and reposts where you state "lets not split hairs" or "you get the general idea", and to be perfectly honest i think the majority of us, including myself have no idea of what you're saying. it is apparent that you love canopy piloting, and that is awesome, we need more people with you enthusiasim. however like you've stated in previous posts you are a "baby" swooper, and it shows in some of the things that you write, because some of the things you write ARE giving out mis-information that can be potentially fatal.

i definitely don't want to stir up shit, but when i see someone trying to tell another new jumper mis-information that could kill them in one of their posts it just isn't cool.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[ianmdrennan 2]

Michael,

Talk to Tyler, Dan, Junior, Noah or any other good swooper at ASC. They should all be able to start you on the right track (a lot of which has been mentioned here already).

Just down the road at The Farm you have another group of swoopers to talk to (Hans, Brian McNenney on occasion, Paul Roussow, hell even Shimmel , etc). As mentioned you have a good deal of resources in your area, please don't be shy or scared to use them.

Also, feel free to approach me at any time should you catch me around the GA area. These things are far better dealt with face to face than over the internet.

Looking forward to meeting you soon.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Tonto 1]

Quote

if you do say a 90 toggle on a diablo it will recover in 50 ft

You're doing it again. This 90 toggle on a diablo...

Is it a fast toggle turn, or a slow one?
What's the wing loading on this diablo?
What's the surface elevation of the DZ it's being jumped at?
Is there a density altitude issue?

The advice you're giving to people who don't know enough to factor in these issues is dangerous. There is no other word for it.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[marks 0]

you can also get involved in your local "swoop scene" (I.e.) georgia skydiving league (GSL) "which is including swooping this year" and the southeast CPC.

not to go and compete, but go hang out, volunteer as a judge, etc. you will learn ALOT by just being around all the pilots.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Mark, that's a great piece of advice.

You can learn an incredible amount by just watching (and asking about runs).

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[airborne82nd 0]

the guy doesnt fly a diablo what are you talking about????

i am pointing out the differences between canopys

and i will do a hard 90 on a diablo all day long and it will recover right after my turn and i have many jumps on a diablo. I realy wonder if you have flown a diablo i had the misfortune of owning one. in fact the canopy will recover right when you stop the turn if you argue this fact you neverr jumped a diablo and i have even jumped the stealth the hybrid 9 cell diablo and its scary as hell.

diablos and stiletos recover imidietly crossfires and other canopys dive and recover much longer.

now are you going to argue that also?? you guys take thing out of context and then you say i am giving dangerous advice i am pointingout differences in canopys and i dont know what canopy the poster is on.

and your an idiot of you think i am giving him advice thats dangerous doing a final 90 degree toggle turn in?
read my damn post word for word and give me a break

he should read germains book and canopy coaching but i dont know what canopy he is on and of course he will downsize.

now now many of you took 200 jumps before you couuld land right and toggle it in for speed and i know aggie dave did not.

someone should answer his question leaveme out of it if you have advice then give it to him and telling him to wait till he has 200 jumps or comeback later willnot help him, he willnot listen.

iam the only one who cared enough to ask him what canopy he is on, others all they want to do is hear their own voice and argue.

i think the focus needs to be on answering questions and giving progressive advice and giving the jumper options. knowledge will keep him safe your condasending anser of come back later will not.

Plus i have the right 100% to share my experience with the disclaimer that his is my jumps and this is what i have flown and this is where i am in the baby swooping. i can tell them how i got here and its safe to say i didnt rush into it and i havent even close togetting hurt. i do realize as you advance in swooping you will get hurt or take a few spills, the hope is to minimize that.

also anyone of you can out swoop my ass anyday i dont make any claims i cant back up and i am honest on what i know. you guys have a strange version of the truth.

the diablo point is so foolish yesterday i was next to someone a friend on a diablo and they did the 5 spins max g diablo toggle turn i did one long 360 toggle on the crossfire and came up right behind him.

but dont worry i will tone it down for the benifit of you all, i dont think there should be a censorship of anyone sharring their knowledge and experience. the poster should consider the source. if you hve a better argument then post it and dont be an ass and say i am giving out bad advice give your counter opinion and dont make it personal.

[marks 0]

I think the dangerous advice is telling someone to do a 90 deg toggle turn onto final when they have 50 jumps...

back off on giving advice to this guy, he is local to me, Ian, and a whole swarm of qualified pilots. we will handle it.

[alterego84 0]

thank you for posting that airborne82nd i now know that i will never take anything you say on these forums, or in person for that matter, seriously. and i can only hope no one else takes what you say seriously either because if they do they will hurt themselves. thanks for clearing up any doubt.

[Spizzzarko 0]

...Yawn...

When is this pissing contest between you people going to end? This is getting to be rediculous.


To all, if you want information but can wait for a good answer then go to canopypiloting .com. It may take a while to get an answer but it will not have the blatant arguing over and over.

[airborne82nd 0]

thats what i am talking about and you wonder why there is trouble when you get personal like that.
i have no idea why you post such crap.

fine take nothing i say personal, hell i dont answer many questions anyway but ill give you an honest opinion, 90% of the time i read everything on here.

thanks aggie dave and one other answered with any substance.

i hope you qulified pilots will handle him i hope but i have seen that handling before, you gouys blow off the new guy and your to good to talk to him.

so go ahead it would be great if you handle it. ill keep quiet.

[airborne82nd 0]

its not me they are getting pissing contest with me. they dont even try to answer the guys question. i am merly defending myself read back through and see who starts that crap.

but i will shut up and just watch, tired of trying to help people and those who want to get personal and nasty and wont confer a couter point and just want to flame and take things out of context, rather then helping anyoe out

so spizzzzzarrko i will be silent. thanks for your aswers in the past by the way. thanks to everyone who answers questions

[deathtrap 0]

Dude,

Lets face it there are opinions and there are facts, a lot of people feel like their opinion is fact because of some personal experience. My advice to you when a bunch of people say your wrong about something, don't take it to personal, (most everyone you'll meet on here is not so abrasive in person, they are just really trying to help people) but, consider the idea that maybe your opinion based on experience is flawed in some way. Seriously, don't take it to personal, but anytime you post a "opinion" in a public forum be prepared for this kind of attack. One day, you will realize how much you didn't know, back when you made this post, then you'll run into someone just like you were, and you'll be telling them the same thing everyone here is now telling you, it happens to all of us at some point
Blue Ones!

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

One day, you will realize how much you didn't know, back when you made this post, then you'll run into someone just like you were, and you'll be telling them the same thing everyone here is now telling you, it happens to all of us at some point

That's me. This has been deja vu all over again, for me atleast.

Then you try to help, as people tried to help me, and its ignored. Eventually the light will flip on, the right person will bring it up, typically in person, and a hard moment of realization will happen. Followed by a period of embarressment, then the strong desire to learn more and to try to help others not to make the same mistake.

Its not a lack of desire, its really a situation of trying too hard to help. We have all been guilty of that more then once in skydiving.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[dharma1976 0]

Quote

Then you try to help, as people tried to help me, and its ignored. Eventually the light will flip on, the right person will bring it up, typically in person, and a hard moment of realization will happen. Followed by a period of embarressment, then the strong desire to learn more and to try to help others not to make the same mistake.

Or it will involved metal being inserted into your body

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[D_22359 0]

First of all I'm just a lurker here most of the time but I have to say that their is some good advice being given the trick (as I see it ... in skydiving in general) is knowing whome to take advice from and who to ignore.

Learning how your canopy fly's is a GOOD THING.

Understanding how to fly a consistante pattern is a GOOD THING.

Doing a 90 on a Diablo low BAD...VERRY BAD I say that after a couple broken ribs given to a 500 jump wounder by an unforgiving Diablo.

Diong a low 90 on a Stellito even worse ... verry verry sore but not broken by the grace of ??

Oh yea we have to be real clear in here right?
DZ Ele: 350' MSL
Wing loading 1.5 Diabol 150 1.9 Stellito 135
experiance(at the time 500 +/- on the Diablo)
550+ Stellito

In short to the origanal poster looking for advice take every thing you read with a grain of salt... or look into supplemental insurance.

KNOWING WHO YOUR DEALING WITH IS GOOD
but hey I just read this crap most of the time so what do I know. You may even want to try some CReW if you want to learn to fly your canopy, food for thought.

Don't get dead... sorry spell check is wacked
Bill

[Pulse 0]

Just came across this thread, but here's my two-cents.

In my mind, your wing -loading seems a bit high for your experience level. I'm sure you can probably handle it, but it doesn't give you the 'experimentation level' that a lower loading would provide.

You haven't mentioned much about your current skills. Before even experimenting with swoop techniques make sure you can consistantly land comfortably in a variety of situations. It should be second nature. If you find yourself falling down because of 'wind gusts' or simply a mis-judged flare, you have no business starting to swoop yet.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."