riser or toggle?

[smkdvr628 0]

Is it more dangerous to make a toggle turn to gain speed closer to the ground than a riser and if so, why?

[chachi 0]

definitely safer to use your riser to gain speed and the most common and agreed upon technique.

when you use a toggle, the pendelum action takes you way away from being under the canopy. the term PLF has been applied to many people cratering this way. parachute landed first.

when you use a riser and bail on the turn due to a poor setup and being low you are almost instantly under the canopy and brakes will in most cases save you.

when you use a toggle and bail you need to catch up to the canopy first before you brakes will make a difference.

[d123 3]

Sorry to jump in with practically no jumps under my belt but you are talking about front riser or back riser?

and how can you bail out from a toggle input dive/turn ? bring the other toggle to the same distance? If yes can you still safetly build speed for flare after the bail?

Edit because i iz making myself understandable in englishing verry well but in reverse

I've ment how do you bail out from a toggle input dive turn/radical turn and not how do you bail out by using toggles. Sorry for the confussion!!! Now is corrected.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[smkdvr628 0]

using the front riser increases your speed and keeps the canopy more under your head. bailing out of a front riser turn will cause your canopy to recover quicker than if you use your toggle or rear risers.

[Vectracide 0]

Couple things to think about for a quick reply:

Front riser = increased speed
Speed = lift
Lift = increased toggle response

Toggle = drag due to lift
Drag+lift = decreased speed
Decreased speed = slow, sluggish toggle response


So, when you riser turn, you speed up, thus increasing your speed that gives you faster toggle response and more lift when you really need it.

When you toggle turn, you increase drag and lift, which gives you the direct response of a turn, but on the bottom end of the turn, you suffer form the aforementioned drag and lift. Your toggle response for a flare will be slower and less effective. These turns are called toggle whips and are to be avoided when near the big hard rock as a performance manouver.

As Chachi mentioned....when you toggle whip...it puts you really high over your canopy and you need to make up that distance with time......time that you might not have if your low. If you riser, you are in a much better position to right the wrong if you need to....the toggle response will be there. Don't waste it up high.

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Controlled and Deliberate.....

[Tonto 1]

People smash themselves both ways. Toggle and riser.

Both are tools. Both have different applications and different responses on different canopies.

You shouldn't turn low regardless of the technique used, and any turn too low indicates an error in judgement that should be acnowledged by the pilot whether or not they got away with it.

You should strive to understand and fly your canopy within it's full control range using all of it's inputs.

The most dangerous part of the landing is the person in the harness. It's what YOU do that deternines the outcome. Not what technique you use.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[HCnorway 0]

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Is it more dangerous to make a toggle turn to gain speed closer to the ground than a riser and if so, why?

To gain speed it is always safest to do a smooth motion. Then you have control throughout your hole dive and easier analyze your surroundings(other jumpers, the ground or the competition course or entry gates).

To get a smooth motion both front and back risers work, but front risers is preferable. If you fly with high wing loading the harness is an even smoother control input that work well.

Taken your number of jumps in account, you should focus on smooth turns, no more than 45 degrees with both front risers. Try also to get as much speed as you can by just fly straight in on front risers and convert to toggles when u need to flare.

Smooth is safe!
-HC

[Pendragon 1]

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Is it more dangerous to make a toggle turn to gain speed closer to the ground than a riser and if so, why?

This is a basic question that should be answered by an instructor or canopy coach. Be careful of forums; there's a lot of garbage out there and you need a basic understanding at least before you're in a position to make any sense of it.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[JohnnyZ 0]

"Be careful of forums; there's a lot of garbage out there and you need a basic understanding at least before you're in a position to make any sense of it."

On the same note... Be careful of who you choose as a coach. Not everybody that calls themselves a coach and has a coach's rating really knows what the hell they're talking about.

[flycurt 0]

Quote

People smash themselves both ways. Toggle and riser.

Both are tools. Both have different applications and different responses on different canopies.

You shouldn't turn low regardless of the technique used, and any turn too low indicates an error in judgement that should be acnowledged by the pilot whether or not they got away with it.

You should strive to understand and fly your canopy within it's full control range using all of it's inputs.

The most dangerous part of the landing is the person in the harness. It's what YOU do that deternines the outcome. Not what technique you use.

t

Hey smoke diver,
Everyone has good answers here and good information as well, but your question is somewhat "loaded" and I don't mean that you loaded it. It's just that toggle or riser input will give you different reactions, and therefore have different applications.

That being said Tonto's response to your question is the one that I would say covers the question best.

Your next move should be to seek qualified canopy coaching. Brian Germain's course, Flight-1 Essential skills course, a Pro-qualified PST competitor, or a CPC organizer. I would consider anyone from here a qualified Canopy Piloting coach.

Good Luck!

[BMFin 0]

Quote

"Be careful of forums; there's a lot of garbage out there and you need a basic understanding at least before you're in a position to make any sense of it."

On the same note... Be careful of who you choose as a coach. Not everybody that calls themselves a coach and has a coach's rating really knows what the hell they're talking about.

I second that..

I often read here how you should take advice given in the forums with a grain of salt and only listen to your instructors.

Thants a good advice in general, but almost always it is forgotten to add that take the advice given by the instructor with a grain of salt also...

1on1 advice is very often subjective though it may be correct. Then again opinions / facts that are supported by more than one individual or disucussed by many here (forums) are more objective and false statements are more likely to be proven wrong..

[druspork 0]

The advice I got went something like this...

When turning with toggles there aren't really any brakes left (it's all used up at least on one side). If you turn with a front riser and you need to get off it, you still have full braking power left to get you back under the canopy.

But then that would be called "digging it out of the corner" - a deadly sin.

Dru

[bob.dino 1]

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Is it more dangerous to make a toggle turn to gain speed closer to the ground than a riser and if so, why?

My attempt at an explanation:

They have different effects, but both can be really dangerous close to the ground.

One fundamental: speed is lift. If the canopy is flying slowly, you don't have much lift in reserve. So, if you realise you're low and bury the toggles to avoid hitting the ground, the effect will be dependent on the airspeed of the canopy. Low airspeed = not much happens = ouch.

Toggles
When you pull down on a toggle, one side of the canopy decelerates. If you pull down on the right toggle the right hand side of the canopy slows down and pitches up a little. The left-hand-side of the canopy then overtakes it, and the canopy turns to the right. The canopy also dives, because the right hand side is now producing less lift than the left (remember: speed = lift).

You build speed from the pendulum effect - pulling down sharply on a toggle moves you out from under the canopy, and as gravity swings you back under the canopy you (and then the canopy) speed up. The danger with this approach is that the canopy is moving slowly and has bugger-all lift during most of this maneuver. So, if you misjudge it close to the ground, you're in serious trouble - bailing out is difficult.

Risers
Pulling down on a front riser pulls down the front edge of the canopy. This accelerates it while reducing the amount of lift it provides. The canopy starts to dive and turn.

The significant difference is that in a front riser turn you don't slow down at the start. This means that if you make a mistake and turn too low, as soon as you let go of the front riser and bury the toggles, the canopy will start to respond.

[Tonto 1]

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as soon as you let go of the front riser and bury the toggles, the canopy will start to respond.

If you have the toggles in your hand. Each year a bunch of people lose a toggle, with serious consequence.

t

It's the year of the Pig.