Transition from rear risers to toggles

[phoenixlpr 0]

I got my first try.

Can anyone tell me what was the reason that felt no lift after transfer? Was it too late?

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

In my humble opinion it was too late.
You lost all your speed before you switched to toggles.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Thanks. I had the same feeling too.

I got really lucky to have it on video.

[dharma1976 0]

yeah you are not going to be able to hang on the rears on a traditionally braced canopy..on my Crossfire2 I pretty much get er pitched and let her fly with no input for a few seconds and then I add the toggles....

Once you have pitched that canopy to the right spot it will want to fly a that level with no inputs most likely...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Thanks.

I try to make sure that someone will catch my next try too.

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[twnsnd 1]

Not enough airspeed.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[phoenixlpr 0]

Have I got it right? Set the AoA and release rears gently and go to toggles in some seconds? Thanks!

[Spizzzarko 0]

Not entirely correct... There are certain canopies that will plane out with little or no input after a speed inducing turn, but the newer designs will probably require some sort of input to plane out. Once it is planned out then you may or may not have to give much input to maintain your level over the ground. So do not think of it like you are saying:

"Set the AoA and release rears gently and go to toggles in some seconds"

It is not as black and white as you are saying. You need to continually fly the canopy by only providing the input necessary to maintain your level over the ground.

[airborne82nd 0]

Did you swoop that? you didnt have any speed at all.

whats your wing loading and is that a cobalt 135??

i dont even touch the rears unless i am hauling ass going as slow as you i would have just toggled it.

where you going into a hard head wind???

you held the rears too long as would have been perfect if you had more speed like double that.

i am working on holding rears longer myself i plane out and then use them for a short time before i go into toggle prematurly.

so i am in the same boat just at the other side

[Spizzzarko 0]

A lot of people use their rear risers to long in a swoop. If you are having to make a huge flare stroke when transitioning from rears to toggles then you have probably flown your rears to long. Rear riser landings are really effecient into the wind so you may want to use the rears just a hair longer into the wind. With a down wind or cross wind component you may want to think about transitioning to the toggles just a hair earlier so that you can hang in the air longer to get some of the push from the wind to aid your distance.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Did you swoop that? you didnt have any speed at all.

whats your wing loading and is that a cobalt 135??

It was a Pilot150 ~ WL 1.4+ from a 90 degrees front riser turn and in 90 degrees side wind. I do know well that canopy is not for swooping.

I had 14 jumps before this weekend and my other gear with the Cobalt is in assembly.

I'm about to learn how to land with rears. that was my 2nd try on land rears, I had to run on my first.

[ninjaswooper 0]

Be careful using rears at slower speeds. I'm no expert but in the past I was told that to use rears in an attempt to extend your swoop is pointless until you are pretty much maxed out on other parameters (degree of turn etc.). Rear riser inputs can be sensitive to dynamic stalls during "low" speed swoops. I've experienced this one first hand and I am lucky to have survived it. Had I not been on the surface when the canopy planed out I would have been flung onto my back when the canopy collapsed behind me, because I asked too much of the rears...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I would have been flung onto my back when the canopy collapsed behind me

Been there ... done that ... it's not fun.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Be careful using rears at slower speeds. I'm no expert but in the past I was told that to use rears in an attempt to extend your swoop is pointless until you are pretty much maxed out on other parameters (degree of turn etc.). Rear riser inputs can be sensitive to dynamic stalls during "low" speed swoops.

Thanks for the warning. I'd like to learn land with rears, but I don't like to run like hell. I'm not a road-runner.

I was playing with rears and rear riser stalls before.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Thanks for the warning. I'd like to learn land with rears, but I don't like to run like hell. I'm not a road-runner.

Don't forget that the wing will stall at a higher airspeed when you're landing with your rears versus toggles - and it will stall at an even higher airspeed than this if you happen to be in a turn while on your rears.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spizzzarko 0]

Check it!!! You can easily find out when your canopy will stall on rears. Up high do a front riser turn and then give input on your rears and watch your pilot chute. When the pilot chute goes straight up instead of straight back you are stalled. This simulates digging out of the corner on rears and will show you how fast the canopy can stall.

[Sinister 0]

Good advice from Spizzzarko as allways. Here is what I have to add.

Ok so here is the deal you are not going to slow to be using your rears. You do not have to be hauling ass to use your rears knowing how to use them in all flight speeds is vital to know if you ever want to compete (when the time comes for you, you will know why).

You did hold on to them for too long but more importantly you were too deep in them, rears are used to trim the wing out not create lift (that is a job for the toggles)

here are some things you can review rears trim out your canopy to level flight and maintain speed.

If you use too much rears you expose the bottom of the canopy which will slow you down very fast (watch your video you can see what I mean) the canopy is pointed up exposing the bottom of the wing which becomes a gian brake.

what you want to do is trim the canopy out to level flight not more than that just before you begin to sink out you need to transfer to toggles. if you are too deep in rears or rode them too far you will see the tail of the wing snap back up just before you flare and you can usualy hear a pop/thunk sound indicating that you did either (listen to your video you can hear it)

I hope this helps you. keep it up be safe and ask questions you are on the right track

Shane Murphy
www.adrenalinegeeks.com

[phoenixlpr 0]

Thanks for all!

So I've landed twice with mostly in rears without injury, one more section of Billvon's list is done.
I hope and can step to the next level. Use it when it can be used.

[yardhippie 0]

I'll drop a thanks in here too.

While, Ive been performing a few of the things that folks are talking about here, I dont know that I really looked at the "why".

Spent a bit of time with that smelly, hop-a-long, south african, on saturday reviewing one of my swoopages.

It really does help to have some one-on-one evaluation of your performance.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I'll drop a thanks in here too.

While, Ive been performing a few of the things that folks are talking about here, I dont know that I really looked at the "why".

Spent a bit of time with that smelly, hop-a-long, south african, on saturday reviewing one of my swoopages.

It really does help to have some one-on-one evaluation of your performance.

Glad it helped

If a Hippy says I smell then I'm in real trouble

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Spizzzarko 0]

If you smell like almonds then your wound may be infected and gangreen may be setting in. I suggest amputation.

[yardhippie 0]

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If you smell like almonds then your wound may be infected and gangreen may be setting in. I suggest amputation.

that would reduce his drag coefficient, and give him an advantage.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[br0k3n 0]

my two cents, pull your slider down...

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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my two cents, pull your slider down...

I didn't even watch the video, but I will definitely say that you don't have any business fucking with your rears at all unless your slider is down and stowed (or removed) and your chest strap is fully loose. That's the progression. We don't pull down on our rears; we pull outward so that there is a seamless transition to toggles when we do finally release our rears. You cannot pull outward on your rears if your slider is over your head. Watch video, read the archived posts on the subject, and if all else fails: PM one of us who do this every single jump.

Chuck

[ianmdrennan 2]

Damn Chuck...keep posting stuff like this and I won't have a job to do!!

Bang on the money...as usual.

Performance Designs Factory Team