BrianSGermain 1 #1 August 7, 2007 Hey All, Here is a new thread to continue the discussion regarding the subject of the article: "Swooping is Not a Crime". Full article here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=664 Let's keep creating solutions together! Sincerely, Brian GermainInstructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CKSCUBA 0 #2 August 7, 2007 Brian thank you so much for your book it is a great buy. transending fear is a wonderful read and it helped me alot. thanks again chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #3 August 7, 2007 Quote widespread proliferation of new DZ rules that prohibit 270 turns for landing or ban high speed approaches entirely I like a list of DZs that do this. Why not on this thread? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #4 August 7, 2007 Quote Brian thank you so much for your book it is a great buy. transending fear is a wonderful read and it helped me alot. thanks again chris Thanks, Chris!! Now it's available at Barnes and Noble!! How cool is that?!? I hope the whuffos read it, they need this stuff more than the jumpers do. Blue Ones, BrianInstructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #5 August 8, 2007 Hi Brian, I saw and read this article shortly after you posted it. Nice read. Could'nt have picked a better pic. Who is that guy in the pic? Is that the guy that who was doing hookturns way back in the day, during the 'banned hookturn days'. The days when swooping(sorry) hookturns was a crime punishable by 'grounding', ' kicked off the dropzone' and or sudden injury or death? Did'nt he start doing hookturns with a cruislite 220 then a Sabre 120? I finally figure it out. Some call him ' Crazy Larry'. How did Crazy Larry get the name anyway? Some may ask. Do you know the answer? By the way, my Jedei 92 still flys like a bat out of hell. It just won't give up. Got over 3,000 on it and 5 line kits. Good job making that one Brian, may i have another? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #6 August 8, 2007 Quote Hi Brian, I saw and read this article shortly after you posted it. Nice read. Could'nt have picked a better pic. Who is that guy in the pic? Is that the guy that who was doing hookturns way back in the day, during the 'banned hookturn days'. The days when swooping(sorry) hookturns was a crime punishable by 'grounding', ' kicked off the dropzone' and or sudden injury or death? Did'nt he start doing hookturns with a cruislite 220 then a Sabre 120? I finally figure it out. Some call him ' Crazy Larry'. How did Crazy Larry get the name anyway? Some may ask. Do you know the answer? By the way, my Jedei 92 still flys like a bat out of hell. It just won't give up. Got over 3,000 on it and 5 line kits. Good job making that one Brian, may i have another? Yup, I can hook you up with another, but it will be a Samurai 95. You will love it!!! --BrianInstructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #7 August 8, 2007 Is it possible to create a difference between hook turns and swooping? From what I've seen, the best, longest, and safest swoops come from gradual carving turns that build up speed that start high and leave room for adjustments/bailout. Maybe it's just semantics, but I consider a "hook" turn one that is started much lower to the ground with little to no room for error. More like a quick toggle turn, but instead the front risers are jerked down.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livenletfly 0 #8 August 9, 2007 swooping is a casual term for the dicipline of "high performance landing". its not an actual method of turn. the 2 turns you refer to would be called a "carving turn" and a "snapping turn". again these are more or less loose terms i dont think theres actual definitions for them. thats just what we call them in my area. it could be different where your at, but a swoop is not a turn. hope that helps clarrify things. and yes a carving turn is a more efficient and safer method of swooping. peace> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djd 0 #9 August 9, 2007 From what I've seen, the best, longest, and safest swoops come from gradual carving turns that build up speed that start high and leave room for adjustments/bailout. I can ans all swoop related questions with ease.... number 1 get coaching from the best... number 2 get coaching from the best.. number 3 practice practice practice when scared go get coaching from the best.... lol... swoop safe... smile Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #10 August 9, 2007 At the risk of getting into a debate as to what a "carving" turns means, I just want to throw something out on the table here folks. Let's not forget that a slow carving turn burns up more altitude than the faster one and someone could find themselves in the corner because of this if they fail to recognize it. I was taught "Time and Altitude" and how it relates to our turn rates and getting to know the performance envelop of the canopies we fly. When I get to my setup point I glance at my digital visual altimeter and it gives me the info I need to know. What sort of turn must I do. A slower turn (where I can use double fronts) because I have plenty of altitude, or a snapier quicker turn because I have less altitude to spare. Of course once we are in the turn, our visual sight point references take over (at a DZ where I have jumped at this season, I am turning right on top of some power lines which quite the sight, fortunately by the time I come out of the turn and am starting to recover, the power lines are still below and behind me, but you got to see it to know what I speak of ... spooky to be in the turn diving right on down at these power lines). Anway ... The perception of a slow carving turn being safer can turn very nasty if the person is asleep at the wheel. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #11 August 9, 2007 Quote but you got to see it to know what I speak of ... spooky to be in the turn diving right on down at these power lines). Concrete triangle where we tie the Otter down. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #12 August 9, 2007 Quote Quote but you got to see it to know what I speak of ... spooky to be in the turn diving right on down at these power lines). Concrete triangle where we tie the Otter down. aka: the loading and fueling area 100yds away from the poop ponds..."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #13 August 13, 2007 R U Sure? But the soft 6-800 ft snivelers? soft openings? Riser pressure? Can I still fly front risers on demand to any degree? Even if I want to do front riser right 360 then immediate left 360? Will the Samurai sustain a dive for as long as the Jedei 92? This Jedei 92 is the majic canopy! It's in the characteristics. Stable in turbulence, long glide, high dive, solid flare performance,goes slow for landing in tight areas, goes fast when I give it some high performance piloting, it's a smooth flyer. Can you talk me into jumping the Samurai? I'd be willing to try the 95 and the next smaller size. What's possible? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pubwoof 0 #14 August 14, 2007 Is it a given that canopy collisions are more likely based on bigger geometry alone? I really don't know whether the presumption that they are is accurate or not, but most arguments I've heard in favor of banning bigger turns seem to use this idea as an unarticulated premise. I'd like to hear some opinions as to why 270s (or greater) are inherently less safe than 180s (or less) as it relates to viewing other canopies in the vicinity. On one hand, it seems logical that 360+ swoops involve traffic along any radial of your turn leaving your field of view at least temporarily. It also seems more plausible that a swooper might be less likely to account for traffic that happens to be just behind them until after they have committed. On the other hand, it seems like 270s provide for a profile view of the swoop lane prior to committing the dive, which I'd think to be advantageous. Or, could a failure to account for traffic directly behind the beginning of a 270 be even more likely to produce a collision assuming everyone is flying the same L/R-handed pattern? I would like to hear some truly experienced people describe whatever correlation that may exist between the radial size of the swoop vs. the chances of a collision. Thank you in advance. The glass isn't always half-full OR half-empty. Sometimes, the glass is just too damn big. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #15 August 15, 2007 Hi. I've been the guy doing hookturns of all degrees for a very long time. One of the key factors that must fit into my ability to do the hookturn is 'clean airspace'. I understand that some people choose to do hookturns in a bit of canopy traffic. Occasionaly but seldom do I perform hookturn in traffic. As for doing the 270 or 360, there is the blind spot to be reckoned with. Witnessed just this past sunday a jumper doing a 90 (left pattern turning onto final leg) that appeared to have a large blind spot to his right, he was looking in the direction he intended to turn prior to turning. Meanwhile canopies that already turned onto final just downwind of him were being cut in front of by jumper doing crosswind leg just upwind of them(he crosswinded in front of 3 canopies). Pattern issue? or rate of turn issue? What i'm getting at is that canopy collisions are in part due to lack of spacial awareness. Rate of turn is not the culprit that causes canopy collisions. If rate of turn were the cause of canopy collisions and/or death i'd be dead over 5,000 + times by now. If a jumper is doing bigger turns than what the pattern is they should be responsible enough to gain the airspace + some to perform the manuever. I have a few cardinal rules for myself to do a hookturn that shall not be broken, regardless of DZ rules. 1. survive, don't injure and don't die , and don't take anyone else with. 2. Do not scare, intimidate, or startle the people in the air. People on the ground and the ground are fair game. 3. Flare prior to landing (this one has saved me countless times). 4. Hardcore tricks: done in certain conditions with certain amount of currency with the gear. 5. perform for no one, this is my game. 6. always be prepared to abort. Hookturn is a stunt each and every time. Once I overcome the possibilities of injury or death, the stunt is on. My senses are alive, the keen sense of spacial awareness( looking, watching other air traffic, observing ground conditions) 90, 180, 270, 360, 540, 900, 1180.... combos, series, compilations, landing 2 stack with skysurf board and camera gear under small wings, whatever the trick, airspace limitations and conditions must be met. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #16 August 15, 2007 Quote Is it a given that canopy collisions are more likely based on bigger geometry alone? I really don't know whether the presumption that they are is accurate or not, but most arguments I've heard in favor of banning bigger turns seem to use this idea as an unarticulated premise. I'd like to hear some opinions as to why 270s (or greater) are inherently less safe than 180s (or less) as it relates to viewing other canopies in the vicinity. On one hand, it seems logical that 360+ swoops involve traffic along any radial of your turn leaving your field of view at least temporarily. It also seems more plausible that a swooper might be less likely to account for traffic that happens to be just behind them until after they have committed. On the other hand, it seems like 270s provide for a profile view of the swoop lane prior to committing the dive, which I'd think to be advantageous. Or, could a failure to account for traffic directly behind the beginning of a 270 be even more likely to produce a collision assuming everyone is flying the same L/R-handed pattern? I would like to hear some truly experienced people describe whatever correlation that may exist between the radial size of the swoop vs. the chances of a collision. Thank you in advance. While I believe that a spiral approach affords me less visibility during the turn, a 270 counter to the traffic pattern allows me more visibility of the other canopies in the pattern than being in the pattern myself. I am entering the area from the opposite direction, and have the ability to turn before I get to the centerline to avoid traffic. I am also quite a bit higher in altitude than others in the standard pattern, which also helps my visibility of other parachutes. That being said, I think that the answer to canopy collisions stretches beyond organized patterns. We need to keep our heads up, looking around so we can keep track of a changing situation. We must be calm and wide awake under canopy if we are to survive in the long run. If everyone did that, we would not need an organized pattern at all. (I know that is blasphemy, but I believe it is the truth) Bri +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #17 August 15, 2007 Quote If everyone did that, we would not need an organized pattern at all. (I know that is blasphemy, but I believe it is the truth) It's not blasphemy - it's strong truth. It's just that there's a sticking point. it's in this part - "if everyone" that 'everyone' part is a slightly difficult goal ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #18 August 15, 2007 Quote Quote If everyone did that, we would not need an organized pattern at all. (I know that is blasphemy, but I believe it is the truth) It's not blasphemy - it's strong truth. It's just that there's a sticking point. it's in this part - "if everyone" that 'everyone' part is a slightly difficult goal Agreed.Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #19 August 15, 2007 I really don't think that the everyone thing is really that hard. Is it to much to ask that people do not fly into the earth at a high rate of speed? No it is not, but the fact of the matter remains that people will make mistakes and pay the price for those mistakes. Very few accidents are caused by freak occurances of nature in this sport compared to those accidents that are cause by people doing stupid things. Unfortunately this whole pattern issue has come to light because some jumpers made mistakes and they and others paid the ultimate price. I'm sorry it happened ,but what so far has come of it? DZ.com has used up a lot of server space with people hashing it out. USPA has done nothing as of yet, some people have propsed BSR's but NOTHING has come of it. I think now the emotion of the events earlier this year is fading off and I hope that a solution can be made. There have been no more events of this nature since all of this started (thank god), so maybe reminding everyone to not do stupid things does help out a little. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #20 August 16, 2007 Quote Quote If everyone did that, we would not need an organized pattern at all. (I know that is blasphemy, but I believe it is the truth) It's not blasphemy - it's strong truth. It's just that there's a sticking point. it's in this part - "if everyone" that 'everyone' part is a slightly difficult goal some might argue that this is the side effect of promoting skydiving for 'everyone'...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #21 August 16, 2007 Quote Quote Quote If everyone did that, we would not need an organized pattern at all. (I know that is blasphemy, but I believe it is the truth) It's not blasphemy - it's strong truth. It's just that there's a sticking point. it's in this part - "if everyone" that 'everyone' part is a slightly difficult goal [flashing]some might argue that this is the side effect of promoting skydiving for 'everyone'...[/flashing] Thank god. Someone actually gets it.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #22 August 16, 2007 USPA has done nothing as of yet, some people have proposed BSR's but NOTHING has come of it. I wonder why USPA has not yet had a take on this issue. Maybe they think everything is 'ok' and no action needs to be taken. Skydivers i'm around seem to think this past spring was a big deal. Some DZ's the landing direction & pattern gets fouled up each day, no matter how many times the manifest speaks out the pattern rules. There are alot of idiots out there, and i'm one of them. So when i'm in the air, watch the f*&^% out! I can mess up the pattern with the best of them. Usually I follow the landing direction rules. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #23 August 16, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote If everyone did that, we would not need an organized pattern at all. (I know that is blasphemy, but I believe it is the truth) It's not blasphemy - it's strong truth. It's just that there's a sticking point. it's in this part - "if everyone" that 'everyone' part is a slightly difficult goal [flashing]some might argue that this is the side effect of promoting skydiving for 'everyone'...[/flashing] Thank god. Someone actually gets it. Careful. Ya'll are starting to sound like NickDG. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
