What visual/audible aids do you use for high performance landings?

[frost 1]

With a recent low-turn fatality of an experienced pilot, this poll came to mind. I wonder how many pilots that choose to do any degree of rotation to pick up speed for landings utilize proper tools?

I strongly feel that with the aid of altimeters like Neptune and Optima low turns should never happen! New and experienced jumpers doing high performance landings should ALWAYS use proper (read: DIGITAL) visual AND audible altimeters. Combined with simple self discipline (if it beeped and you are not there yet - DONT turn) they will help prevent dangerous low turns from ever happening

I use two audibles (an Optima and a Neptune) and a Neptune as a visual aid.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Neptune in my ear, and on my wrist.

That said I'm always cautious when recommending these items - NOT because they don't have an immediate, tangible benefit, but because I've encountered far too many 'hook by the beep' pilots lately and, as we know, it not quite that simple
I try to temper the advice with 'believe whichever say you're lower' - your eyes, your devices, etc. Finally it's important for pilots to recognize that these are simply GUIDES, like all our tools. Having the combination of skill, awareness, and practice to utilize them effectively is what counts
Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[AggieDave 6]

For competitions I wear two Neptunes, just in case one craps out on the plane or under canopy. The question was asked, what do you do if they read differently? My answer is to go with the lower number. With two on my wrist, they typically are within 10ft of each other, so it hasn't really been an issue.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[frost 1]

I recommend digital devices with NO hesitation. Further education on traffic, patterns and good manners under canopy should always follow, but I would much rather have a 'hook by the beep' pilot, then a dead or broken one. I'd guess that these things may save more lives then all AAD combined :)

[dharma1976 0]

I use two visuals...both digital...a neptune on my hip and a viso on my wrist...I do not use swoop audibles as I personally found them distracting...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[RMURRAY 1]

Neptune used as audible. can keep eyes on traffic and the setup.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I recommend digital devices with NO hesitation. Further education on traffic, patterns and good manners under canopy should always follow, but I would much rather have a 'hook by the beep' pilot, then a dead or broken one. I'd guess that these things may save more lives then all AAD combined :)

See, that hasn't been my experience so far. Pretty much in every class I've run there's been at least one pilot who just goes when the neptune/viso says so. They're also, typically, the pilot who's in the corner a fair bit.

Having the neptune tell you a good turning height doesn't mean the pilot will turn at the appropriate rate to keep it 'safer'. Turns are just too dynamic to bottle up like that IMO and small hesitations or rotation rate changes can have a dramatic impact (no pun intended) on the results of the turn.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[frost 1]

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Pretty much in every class I've run there's been at least one pilot who just goes when the neptune/viso says so. They're also, typically, the pilot who's in the corner a fair bit.

Do you address the proper patterns and set up? Do you explain how and for what points to set up the swoop alarms? I am sure you do, so i dont know how someone ends up in the corner, if he executes a turn at the correct altitude and uses the audible alarms along the predetermined flight plan.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I am sure you do, so i dont know how someone ends up in the corner, if he executes a turn at the correct altitude.

Yep I do. Basically, they end up in the corner because they don't do the same turn every time, at the same altitude. Sometimes it takes them longer to pull the fronts down, sometimes they turn faster, sometimes they turn slower, etc.

Of course this happens to all of us, but we're compensating during the turn, whether we realize it or not. Oftentimes, less experienced pilots are still developing that skill.

Another common thing I see is a pilot getting to their setup point a little early and rushing their turn (they think it's being done slow). They then get down and say "I turned high" and want to set their device to beep lower when, in reality, they turned at the perfect altitude but they just turned too fast. If they do that and then, on a subsequent jump, do a great rotation speed (now inappropriate for the altitude) they're low.

That's kinda what I was driving at when I commented on bottling up the turn - there are just so many variables in every landing that there's no 'fail safe' solution that I can see.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[morris 0]

I use an analog wristmounted altimeter for the very first/very high part of the canopy ride.
As it gets serious Optima is taking over.
I recommend to chose the altitude for the very final "beep" a bit too high so that you don´t have to start your turn in a hurry and/or almost immediatly. In general, I´ve you arrive - for whatever reason a bit too low - at your "turnpoint" (don´t know how you native speaker call it) you know that your lower and it´s pretty easy to compensate for that, wouldn´t you agree?
I mean "compensate" from a safety point of view, of course your loosing power...
I don´t know what kind of accident happened I just believe that most accidents would not take place if the pilot goes every time he (or she) has the slightest doubt for toggles immediatly.
What I wanna say is that I think that the dangerous part is how you act if you start your recovery arc (too) low. The "high part" is not the problem, if you initiate a bit too low, just turn faster.
Conclusion: It´s not about what kind off device you´r using, it´s how you react during the bottom part.
Setting-up to close and keep on diving for the gate in a desperate try to make it is way more dangerous than starting a bit low...
Thoughts on this?

[frost 1]

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The "high part" is not the problem, if you initiate a bit too low, just turn faster.
Conclusion: It´s not about what kind off device you´r using, it´s how you react during the bottom part.

I think we're talking about same thing, essentially. But what i recommend to newer pilots is this: if the digital altimeter says you are below the predetermined safe altitude for your type of turn, DO NOT execute the turn at all, do a straight in approach or do a smaller turn (say a 90 instead of 270).

Those who are capable of speeding up/slowing down the turn when needed, how to get to their set up points in various conditions, etc. probably do not need advice to use digital altimeters - they already know the benefits.

[piahenzi 0]

I've definitely found having a digital wristmount alti beneficial over the analog while learning to correct my set up /points - this a recent development for me and a huge help. I use the Neptune & Neptune Wave for audibles... also find that I like the last beep a little high - gives me time to take that deep breath
At the end of the day tho, deciding whether I am good or too low, do I have to abort/change rate of turn is all eyeball - as much faith as I put in the technology, there's just no place for blind faith.

I also have an Optima for my other helmet but can't find anyone to program it for me I will buy a LOT of beer for anyone that will take the time ( I HATE schematic manuals. :) HELP!

As an aside, I do go to the Women's Forum from time to time and there I found a poll as to who can fold fitted sheets AND knows how to pack a parachute...hmmmm. .. which forum do you guys think I visit more often

BTW- I can do both

[jdfreefly 1]

dear god...two posts in one day, I think I owe beer.

I use my eyes only. I recently started trying to jump with a neptune wrist mount, but couldn't successfully retrain myself to do my approach with anything but my eyes. Right before the point of maneuver I am so busy scanning the skies above and below that I forgot to look at the neptune.

While relying exclusively on my eyes, I may not be the most consistent swooper at the dz, but my sight picture has been deeply ingrained.

If I was going to start trying to compete at the national level, I'd probably try an audible swoop alarm, but for now, I'm happy to use my eyes.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[morris 0]

Frost:
I agree with your opinion, for pilots that are not very very experienced and able to adjust to the situation at hand it might present a serious danger to rely on devices (only) and/or to swoop by "beeps".

[morris 0]

jdfreefly:
I think "eyes only" can be very dangerous, how dangerous might be/is depending on the type of turn your doing, the higher you start from the more difficult it is to judge the altitude by "eyes only", don´t you think so?
In general:
I think the "perfect solution" is - like always - inbetween the two extremes "eyes only" and "swoop by beeps only".
The device(s) should be used to avoid that your "totally wrong", the "final decisions" should be taken by the pilot....

[RMURRAY 1]

agreed. I like what Jim Slaton has been saying for years now..."aviators use instruments and so should we".

[phoenixlpr 0]

Can you see the trend how people can learn swooping than before? Because they are using better instruments.

I think the way to go is start by beep, but abort on eyes.

[dharma1976 0]

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Can you see the trend how people can learn swooping than before? Because they are using better instruments.

I think the way to go is start by beep, but abort on eyes.

I think you and morris are saying the same thing...

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[fedot_2001 0]

For the initial set up, I use wrist digital. Lower then 1300 (my first canopy audible alarm), I switch to audio and visual. Only if in doubt for the audible signal or/and visuals I double-check with wrist digital alti. My personal experience tells me that the closer I get to the point of turn initiation the less time there is to look at wrist alti. There are just too many things to do just before the turn: last traffic check, locate right place for turn to make the gates, keep constant visual with the ground, locate front risers …

[dharma1976 0]

I use a hip mount and love it cause I get to look at my visual to the ground and my alti as I am setting up in one swooping gaze of the eyes...

D

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[fedot_2001 0]

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I use a hip mount and love it cause I get to look at my visual to the ground and my alti as I am setting up in one swooping gaze of the eyes...

D

yeah, I'm aware about the hip mounts ... just not sure about it ... at that point I would personally prefer to concentrate more carefully on the ground that is closing on me rather then hip mount alti ...

i dono ... are there more point of vews on that topic from other swoopers?

[Pendragon 1]

I totally agree with Ian. For example, a 270 degree turn on a crossbrace could reasonably lose 500-800ft in height at sea level, dependent on turn rate etc.

The way I see it (and from recent personal experience) is that the problem new swoopers have to overcome is two-fold:

1) Developing consistency in the turn performed to actually match the "beep" height
2) Being able to continually assess the progress of the dive with a good sight-picture to make the correct adjustments, without getting overly distracted by or fixated on things on the ground (e.g. gates) - and knowing when to bail, if that is only option left

Audibles and other forms of electronic aids are great - although surely their introduction should be correctly monitored by a coach?

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[frost 1]

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I'm always cautious when recommending these items

When i hear "cautious when recommending" i always want to ask a sarcastic question: Should a new pilot first use an analog alti and his eyes to train the correct sight picture, and only then start swooping by beep? err.. i mean using proper tools?? :) Silly, of course. But I think we may be getting slightly off track here and losing the point. I doubt anybody here promotes swoop by beep. The main point is: you should use correct tools for the job for your own benefits.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Mike,

Don't confuse caution with 'not recommending'. I absolutely encourage pilots to get audible and visual (digital aids). I also back that up with a heavy lesson on why you shouldn't 'rely' on them per say and why they aren't some magical swoop machine that'll make the pilot fail safe.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is that I teach them HOW to use the device correctly and, IMO, that is teaching them to not just 'go when it beeps' but rather teaching them WHAT it means when it beeps
Giving the pilot as many tools as possible, gives them a number of ways to cross reference the data they are receiving and make, hopefully, good decisions with that data.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[frost 1]

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Basically, what I'm trying to say, is that I teach them HOW to use the device correctly

thats what i was looking for and thats how it should be.

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Giving the pilot as many tools as possible, gives them a number of ways to cross reference the data they are receiving and make, hopefully, good decisions with that data.

exactly!