The digital swoop.....

[diablopilot 2]

I'd like to thank the poster of this bit of video for pointing out the trouble that people learning high performance landings are going to be encountering. The instruments that must be trained and used first and foremost are your eyes, ears and other senses.

If you wouldn't throw the turn having left your altimeter on the ground, you shouldn't be throwing it at all.

To the OP of the video, glad you're safe, and thanks again for sharing a lesson learned the hard way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyEydS6T2QI&feature=related

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ianmdrennan 2]

JP - Thanks for posting this. It really illustrates my point (and yours) of altimeter dependence.

The jumper in question is a friend of mine (and a hell of a nice guy actually), he totally understands the situation now and has actually moved away from HP turns at this point.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[berchtoldaj 0]

I'm sure Ian can agree that as speed increase seeing the picture many hundreds of times pays off. I've seen that picture before and hit the ground. Through repition, We can learn to see it coming before we hit the ground. The video shows it low on the downwind leg, I'll bet it shows the pilot low it every 45 degrees of the turn. so do our eyes.
I see it as a good example to step up turn radius slowly. The more 45's we do, 90's we do, the more we have memorized the sight picture of what they look like when they're low.

I think the Princess of the pond may have moved to Atlanta as well. be carefull.
Glad to hear he's alright.

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Watch out for planters.

[jdfreefly 1]

Aside from the fact that he completely missjudges the turn, and doesn't have the sight picture programmed to know it, he also spends a lot of time looking at his wrist when his head should be scanning the sky all around him.

One of my biggest concerns with the people using tools like this to judge their approach, is that it focuses their attention on their wrist and removes it from the sky.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[strop45 0]

Thanks for the post, very useful. As a novice, I'm just starting to make some higher performance landings, double fronts, 45 degree, 90 degree front riser approaches and I have some questions.

1) How do any of your senses other than your eyes assist with HP landings?

2) Do you think that I should or shouldn't be using a digital altimeter ( optima) to assist my eyes ?

3) What is the likely variation in altitude readings?

Cheers

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[phoenixlpr 0]

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If you wouldn't throw the turn having left your altimeter on the ground, you shouldn't be throwing it at all.

Disagree.

Using proper instruments yields to safer jumping.
They are helping to build consistent turns. Swoop can be started by beep, but it should be aborted if eyes are calling/screaming.
I like my Optima's swoop guide, it helps me concentrate on setup and traffic.

Safe Beeeeps!!!

[BMFin 0]

The way I see it is that the meter is actually functioning like it is supposed to. (shows more less the right altitude)

It looks like he starts the bad swoop with long and aggressive double fronts. Hes losing the critical altitude therefore and ending up in the corner at the end.

The canopy obviously has very short recovery arc and IMO therefore actually less forgiving in low 180´s

I see it that it may be that using digital altimeter is one of the factors that led up to this situation. However it is not the reason why he bounced..

[TheCaptain 2]

High performance landings are something that should be done using a visual site picture not just a number on a digital altimeter. Even beyond initiating the turn is what that site picture looks like during the turn. A pilot will need to be able to assess if they are a little low or high while in the middle of the turn, this I think is key as there is still time fix it (and there is no time to look at your altimeter). I think digital altimeters are great for setup but I feel you should never rely solely on it for making that turn. I have watched people that usually do good high performance landing nearly bounce if their digital altimeter battery went dead on the jump. IMHO it is a very bad idea to use a digital altimeter as your sole gage of when to initiate a high performance turn.
Kirk

[frost 1]

I'd consider a couple of points.

1. At the Farm (where the video was made) to board the plane you have to ride the bus for about 10 minutes to another airport, which is ~100 feet higher (right?) then the intended landing area. Additional time and altitude variation will affect what the numbers on a digital altimeter will really show and mean when you are landing.
2. If the turn of 180 degrees was made from 300 (or 400 actual?) feet... there is a good chance that he had to stab out of it as is. On the second turn of even more rotation - 220, right? - even if he stabbed, it didnt help. Is even 400 feet really enough for a 180 (much less a 220) turn? Was it a stiletto? :)

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seeing the picture many hundreds of times pays off

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Aside from the fact that he completely missjudges the turn, and doesn't have the sight picture programmed to know it, he also spends a lot of time looking at his wrist when his head should be scanning the sky all around him

Exactly right on those two counts. That's what this video really illustrates to me: a novice mistake of not recognizing the picture of a low turn (not to say that even very experienced jumpers dont make it). May be not knowing the minimum safe turning altitude for his type of turn? Definitely not in any way a negative view on digital aids for swooping. In fact, i'd say he should have used an Optima to complement and back up what his Neptune shows. And of course, more jumps to train the sight picture to recognize you're low and the ground is coming too fast.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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High performance landings are something that should be done using a visual site picture not just a number on a digital altimeter.

Skills do not appear just by themself. The safest way to learn high speed landings is controlling as many aspect of the landing as it is possible, doing consistent turn and initiating from the very same altitude. Key to success is making a good setup and lean the picture and angle little by little on the process. You have to have the set of tools how to abort to turn in any phase.

Your eyes can not tell you high high you are, how has your canopy recover. You have to use instruments in order to have consistent setup and you have to use you eyes and instincts when to bail out and abort the turn.

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I have watched people that usually do good high performance landing nearly bounce if their digital altimeter battery went dead on the jump.

Is that because they had those? Was it a piloting error? I think it was, just like the video in this thread. Its a nice example of target fixation.

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IMHO it is a very bad idea to use a digital altimeter as your sole gage of when to initiate a high performance turn.

IMHO its not a question to use a digital visual and digital audible altimeter for learning to swoop but a must.

[TheCaptain 2]

I have a feeling we will never see eye to eye on this subject. I think digital altimeters are a great tool to aid a swooper, I just think it is a very bad idea to count on them as your only tool of how high you are. When I started to learn high performance landings I was taught to slowly progress the degree of turn starting out flying straight in on double fronts until you got that site picture right. Than progress to a 45° turn to final until you got that site picture right, and so on. I eventually bought a digital altimeter and use it for set up but my 180° is always done by site picture (and yes the digital altimeter helps build this site picture).
Kirk

[davelepka 4]

The use of any of these devices beyind a certain point is a bad idea. For example, I usually start my turn at about 700 or 800 feet. The last time I check my alti is around 1000 or 1100 feet. The alti is a tool to use for your set up, but once your in the area, you need to be able to use your eyes for traffic management, and then to fly your canopy. Using a machine to tell you when to turn will slow your progress in learning your sight picture for when to start your turn, and when to stop.

There may be a point, far along in your development as a swooper where your turn is consistant enough that using a digital alti to a more precise level is beneficial. I'm talking after 1000 jumps swooping the same wing, when you're into competition swooping, the accuracy of a digital alti could be helpful. This is all after you have developed your 'eye', and could reach 90% of your potential with no help at all. In that case, the alti may help you through the last 10%.

As proven by this video, more and more people will simply wait for the 'right' number, and crank a turn. Or they will wait for a 'beep' and fire one off. What happens when the beep doesn't come? By the time the jumper realizes that the beep isn't coming, they're too low for what they wanted to do, and probably not in a good spot for much else. On top of it all, they don't have another machine to tell them what to do now.

These gizmos are setting up a bad standard for the next generation. They are very narrowly focued on doing one job, and yes, when all other things go right, they perform that job well, but as we know, all things don't always go that well.

It's like we tell newbies, buy the canopy you can land in the worst case scenario, not the one you can land on a calm sunny day. It's the same thing with swooping, plan on the landing that you can survive if everything that can go wrong (traffic, wind shifts, gear problems, etc) does, not the one you can pull off on a good day with all of your gizmos.

Check out this video and listen to what he says around the 1:15 mark, it's pure gold, and words to live by for any aviator.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE

[TheCaptain 2]

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If you wouldn't throw the turn having left your altimeter on the ground, you shouldn't be throwing it at all.

I agree 100%

[diablopilot 2]

You have just saved me from typing out a reply!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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They are very narrowly focued on doing one job, and yes, when all other things go right, they perform that job well, but as we know, all things don't always go that well.

I guess you know what to do if things are not good enough anymore.

I'd rather about than crash.

I do not think this discipline is about pushing the limit, rather holding yourself back....

Swooping is optional, landing is not.

[frost 1]

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These gizmos are setting up a bad standard for the next generation.

yeah, you're right. progress is bad, lets all go back to whipping toggle turns.

Let me ask this then. What are we talking about here? Are you saying "dont use the digital gizmos until you have trained and built your sight picture"? Would this guy be better off without the Neptune? What would you say if he impacted with out the digital altimeter? These are almost rhetorical questions.

Seemingly, we have two camps, two points of view here. And although I am not 100% sure what the other is, i am going to guess that both camps are saying the same thing essentially. And that is: Digital tools are an EXCELLENT help, but should be used properly and with caution along with EVERYTHING at pilot's disposal.

But because both sides are so sure in their experience and opinions, neither wants to see the truth: we're all agree on this. Nobody here is saying "turn when it beeps and dont worry about anything else".

I will continue to use proper tools for the job. I will continue to advocate the "proper" use of such tools to novice pilots.

Oh and i would think twice about and use extreme caution throwing the turn if i didnt have these tools. But thats just me, i am too scared and too cautious about this shit.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Frost,

To counter your points

1. The jumper is a farm regular. He is aware, and does, to set the offset at 130 feet.

2. It's a crossfire 2 139 loaded around 1.5 I believe.

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Definitely not in any way a negative view on digital aids for swooping.

Absolutely untrue. The pilot himself will tell you he was focused on what the neptune said and was waiting for the 'magic number'. As Dave has said, and he's 100% right IMO, these tools are GUIDES.

Unless you can guarentee that you're doing the exact same turn, in the exact same manner, with the exact same pauses, inputs, etc, in the exact same conditions each and EVERY time - they'll never be anything more.

Neptunes/Optimas are WONDERFUL for helping get people to the right place at the right time - what they do from there is entirely out of the guide's hands. Which is exactly why they should NEVER be used as 'go when it says x altitude'.

The point you appear to be missing is NOT that we're saying 'Neptunes/Optimas are bad, don't use them' (at least not what I'm saying). Instead we're saying that they are guides and there is NO SUBSTITUTE for a slow progression that will help you build the sight pictures to tell you when things are going wrong.

In a nutshell: Digital Alti's are great for helping you build a consistent pattern and inititation point. They aren't any good at all for telling you when you've done something to eat up more altitude in the turn than you expected and that you've now put yourself in the corner. THE PROBLEM is that novice pilots have a habit of relying on the device. Honestly, I'm not sure how to break the habit (since I do encourage them to jump with Neptunes) but the dangers that come with them are something I repeatedly cover and stress to them.


Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[davelepka 4]

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Let me ask this then. What are we talking about here? Are you saying "dont use the digital gizmos until you have trained and built your sight picture"? Would this guy be better off without the Neptune?

Yeah. 100%. It's not that complex. Start off with small turns, like 45s. They're done low, and it's easy to see your altitude when you're down low. Addtionally, those turns are less of a 'commitment', and more foregiving of mistakes.

Once you have that dialed in, and it will take a fair number of jumps to be good at it, add another 45 to the turn so you're doing 90s, and so on, and so on, and so on.

This is the way you build experience while you build up to a bigger, more committed turn. This is the way that provides you with time in the saddle before you're throwing the big turns. You have an exposure to more situations, different weather, different DZs and such. You are a better canopy pilot, and you have earned the right to be 'up there' where the bigger turns happen.

Your way involves lightening your wallet by $250, and going online to find out how high you should be turning.

To be fair, my way has it's holes as well, like the guys who skip the smaller turns, or do 12 45s, and 16 180s, and think they're ready for the big time. You can't stop them anymore than you can stop the guys who will grab a riser at 1000ft, stare at their alti, and wait.

Overall, I think if a guy really follows the 'program', my way will produce a better canopy pliot than your way.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Dave,

I think the answer is in a mix of the two.

We need to train pilots using your method WHILE wearing these devices so that it can help them build a better sight picture and idea of altitude loss for their type of HP turn.

This requires heavy, and active mentorship, from the HP community on how each guide (eyes, neptune, audible, etc) are used and how to add them to your toolbelt and up the pilots chances of success.

The problem with the analog only method is that it's grossly inaccurate, particularly at lower altitudes (where it's most critical). 500 ft and 250 feet on a analog alti look almost identical.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[frost 1]

davelepka: well i guess i was wrong about two camps essentially saying the same thing :)

And no, my way doesnt involve "lightening your wallet by $250, and going online to find out how high you should be turning"

ianmdrennan : But seems i was right about both sides being so sure in their experience and opinions, that one doesnt want to see what the other is saying :)

Did you not just reiterate what i said? "Digital tools are an EXCELLENT help, but should be used properly and with caution along with EVERYTHING at pilot's disposal"

[phoenixlpr 0]

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The problem with the analog only method is that it's grossly inaccurate, particularly at lower altitudes (where it's most critical). 500 ft and 250 feet on a analog alti look almost identical.

I believe that most people with high jump number learnt swooping without any digital gadget. I do respect them.
You may call me impatient, but I do not want to go that way. I use digital gadgets as guides as long as I need them.

Just remember those bounced without proper tools and techniques.

[TheCaptain 2]

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The problem with the analog only method is that it's grossly inaccurate, particularly at lower altitudes (where it's most critical). 500 ft and 250 feet on a analog alti look almost identical.

I believe that most people with high jump number learnt swooping without any digital gadget. I do respect them.
You may call me impatient, but I do not want to go that way. I use digital gadgets as guides as long as I need them.

Just remember those bounced without proper tools and techniques.

So what do you plan to due if your digital gadget stops working (as they all will do at some time)or gives you a false reading after you have left the plane ?
My Suunto Vector when the battery is too low the watch will reset itself in the middle of a skydive for 6000 ft and 6:00 PM

[phoenixlpr 0]

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So what do you plan to due if your digital gadget stops working (as they all will do at some time)or gives you a false reading after you have left the plane ?

I jump with Neptune and Optima.
I cross check them when Optima arms itself at 300m.
They have different hardware and different software. They might also have some difference in altitude indicated: 10-30m.

I can land without swooping or abort higher if something goes bad.

[diablopilot 2]

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The problem with the analog only method is that it's grossly inaccurate, particularly at lower altitudes (where it's most critical). 500 ft and 250 feet on a analog alti look almost identical.

And that's not a problem. That's what forced us to learn how to read the picture before the advent of "accurate" digital devices.

We're not flying IFR, we're VFR pilots, who occasionally reference instruments to confirm what we're seeing.

A digital alti should be used no differently than it's analog counterpart, as a set up reference for downwind, and maybe base legs, but from there the pilot needs to be transferring their attention outside the cockpit.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Thanks for the post, very useful. As a novice, I'm just starting to make some higher performance landings, double fronts, 45 degree, 90 degree front riser approaches and I have some questions.

1) How do any of your senses other than your eyes assist with HP landings?

Ears can pick up the change in airspeed, kinetic feedback (a term I just made up) can give input on what the canopy "feels" like it's doing, the load factor can give an indication of angle of attack...... It might sound like hippy bullshit but I "feel" my way through a swoop as much as I "read" it.

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2) Do you think that I should or shouldn't be using a digital altimeter ( optima) to assist my eyes ?

There is nothing wrong with the device, only how it's used. With analogs, since they do have an inaccuracy factor, they are used for gross reference points, and then an educated guess based on instinct, evaluation of conditions, experience, timing, is used to start a turn to landing, and then the process continues throughout the turn changing turn and dive rates and angles to complete the swoop. It's through refining this process that people learn how to "read the picture" not the instrument, and learn when to bail.

The digital instrument seems to provide more accurate data point, and there for seems to lure some into "flying by the numbers", leading them into trusting the device to be accurate within a much tighter margin and therefore believing that the turn will be "perfect".

My advice to you would be jump whatever instrument you like best, but if you find yourself trying to use it's accuracy as a performance point, watch out. I jump analog, digital, and audible, sometimes on the same jump. None of them agree and always think of them as being AT LEAST 100ft inaccurate, if not more. In addition my last visual referenc of the altimeters is at least 15 to 30 seconds before any performance turn. The time after that check is spent on a scan of my airspace, path, outs, and "picture".

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3) What is the likely variation in altitude readings?

Cheers

I've no idea, but I don't "trust" any of them, in freefall or under canopy. They are all just reference devices.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.