The digital swoop.....

[PhreeZone 20]

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Just remember those bounced without proper tools and techniques.

There have also been increasing numbers of jumpers that have died with digital altimeters on them in the last few years. The "magic number" swoopers are as big of an issue as the "whip a toggle/riser" group. Yes, the digital altimeters have a much increased level of accuracy but they should only be used to compliment your primary tools. They can be a sanity check where you visually think you are at 900 feet but a glance at the altimeter says you are at 725 instead and that confirms you are too low. It shouldn't be used as a "turn at 812 feet exactly" tool. Digital altimeters can really help you learn a new sight picture if you are at a different DZ or location then normal. Someone that has never been to Raeford before might not believe the trees really are 100+ feet and might think they are only 50-60 like they are used to and that can throw off a sight picture, the digital altimeter is a sanity check in those cases.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[davelepka 4]

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The problem with the analog only method is that it's grossly inaccurate, particularly at lower altitudes (where it's most critical). 500 ft and 250 feet on a analog alti look almost identical.

Just to be clear, I never suggested that an analog alti was the way to go. Digital is the only option if youplan to use it for swooping.

I did say that at lower altitudes, the sight picture is easier to aqquire as the differences between 250 ft and 500 ft are easy to determine with the naked eye. This makes the 'eyeballs only' method a workable solution for 45s early on in the progression.

In contrast, the differences between 750 and 1000 are more subtle, and require a trained eye to tell the two apart at a glance. This is where a guy without a trained eye, who is counting on his digital alti, can run into problems in the case of a mis-read, or failure of the alti.

I don't know why people seem to think there's another way. There's just not. It takes time and perseverence. I'm sure that plenty of the high-time guys (myself included) can remember back to their early days, and sloppy flying and mistakes they made.

During a bonfire discussion about swooping with a couple of pro level swoopers, one of them said, "It's always the guys with lots of experience that come out on top. You just can't touch them when it comes to consistancy". The guy who said that was not including himself in that grouping, and he's got 5000 jumps, and over a decade in the sport.

Swooping is a different world than skydiving. What makes a big shot on the DZ is chump change out by the swoop pond. 1000 jumps is a drop in the bucket in terms of swooping. It takes that long to safely work your way down to a competitive WL, and then you buckle down and learn your craft.

[strop45 0]

JP, Thanks for the reply , makes a lot of sense. It seems to me that 'feeling' your way through the swoop is probably a combination of things which you can only get from experience. This is consistent with the advice of others to start small (say 45) and get confident i.e. built up experience and the 'feeling' before increasing the size of the turn.

Blue Skies
Wayne

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[diablopilot 2]

Very well stated sir!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Buffdiver 0]

To the OP of this thread, Thank you! I have a few jumps under my belt now but am still very new to swooping. I consider myself a coordinated and spatially aware person but have continued to take canopy courses from our local canopy coach (Jimmy-T). He has taught me so much but I still know I tend to rely on that "digital magic number" way too often. I will definitely put a lot more effort into my visual cues rather than relying on my alt after seeing this. Glad you walked away but I am also glad I am able to learn from stuff like this.

[Pulse 0]

I think altimeters fall into that same catagory as AAD's. And what do we preach about AAD's?

They are mechanical devices and should NOT be relied on. To be used as backup devices only.

Hence, if you're using your altimeter for finding your swooping altitude. At the very least it should be telling you what you already know. But then the question is what do you do if your eyes and altimeter are disagreeing?

This is why I am a 'fly through the turn' guy.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[ianmdrennan 2]

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ianmdrennan : But seems i was right about both sides being so sure in their experience and opinions, that one doesnt want to see what the other is saying :)

Did you not just reiterate what i said? "Digital tools are an EXCELLENT help, but should be used properly and with caution along with EVERYTHING at pilot's disposal"

Mike,

You've said in response to a very experienced and currnent pilot who was a recent fatality:

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With the aid of altimeters like Neptune and Optima this should never happen! New and experienced jumpers doing high performance landings should ALWAYS use proper (read: DIGITAL) visual AND audible altimeters. Combined with simple self discipline (if it beeped and you are not there yet - DONT turn) they will help prevent dangerous low turns from ever happening.

Now, to me, this reads that you think these devices can stop low turns. I just don't agree. There are absolutely too many variables in an approach that can put a pilot lower than they intended, even if they start exactly at the right 'beep' altitude.

You're right in that I don't think we are far off on our views, I just feel that LESS dependence (not to confuse dependence with usage) on a tool is a good thing.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[frost 1]

Yeah, sure. I dont think dependency on anything is a good idea.

But what i was saying in that reply - "if it beeped and you're not there - dont turn", not "if it beeped - turn now". That's two different things, no? If one turns at the beep not looking around and not using his (hopefully) well trained sight picture and eyes - then he is setting himself up for a failure. And that's what this video illustrates. If one follows what i said - he will not turn, thus preventing a low turn. I guess that strategy wont prevent them all, but it will prevent a lot of them.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

There are many ways to skin the cat, and I have found a way that (historically) works for me. But what works for one person may not work for another. After watching the video there is a couple things that are troubling.

1) I am not a fan of having my digital alitimeter mounted on my wrist. I prefer to have it mounted on my waist (I know others have them mounted around their chests and that works in a similar manner to the waist). To me, having the altimeter mounted on my waist allows me to glace at my target below while monitoring my altitude. Putting it on my wrist takes my focus away from my target, and it makes seeing other canopy traffic even harder.

2) I am not a fan of turning at a specific altitude. Way back when, when I was still learning to swoop (heck we are all still learning), I used to think that you needed to be in a specific part of the sky at a certain altitude on each jump. But I since been taught that every jump is different and I have been taught to use a range of altitudes and to use different turn techniques to compensate for whatever altitude you may find yourself at when it comes time to turn.

3) I am not a fan of audible altimeters that people use to decide when to turn. Going back to point #2, every jump is different and people who compete in competitive swoop competitions know that you want to be over your target before you start your turn (the start of your turn to make the entry gates can often depend on cross-wind conditions). I think people who rely on audible altimeters to decide when to turn are the ones who are most likely to struggle to make the gates and/or be in danger. If people need a beep in their ears to tell them when to turn, then they really need to take a few steps back with their swooping (maybe schedule some coaching). "I turned because a bell went off in my ears" just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. It should be "I turned because my eyes told me it was okay to commit to the turn".

4) I love my digital altimeter, it has done wonders towards making me a better more consistent swooper. But it is a tool that I use to help me monitor how to get to my setup point (how am I progressing based on the current WX conditions of that jump, do I use rears, toggles or full flight) and it is a tool that tells me what sort of turn can I make based on how well or how poorly I flew to my setup point. It tells me to make a fast turn rate if I am close to my basement, or it tells me to use a slower turn rate if I am high or if I have altitude to use double fronts.

5) Finally, digital altimeters are great tools to help you get to your setup point, but once you commit to the turn it is 100% visual and hopefully our spider senses are well tuned so that we know when to get off of our front risers, finish the turn and let the canopy recover naturally with little to no control inputs. None of us is born with this spider sense and surely digital altimeters have nothing to do with your spider senses. No developing one's spider senses is all about experience and currency.

Now if I could only become current again. 2005/2006 (when I was last ultra current) seem like an eternity ... Oh well, sucks to be me living in the north with a short jump season, much more expensive jump tickets and less expendible income to spend on jumping. But it was fun while it lasted.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,991]

>Using proper instruments yields to safer jumping.

And depending on instruments leads to less safe jumping.

If you would absolutely refuse to jump/swoop without a cypres, a certain altimeter, an RSL (or indeed any auxiliary device) then it's a good bet that you are over-reliant on it.

>Swoop can be started by beep . . .

That's about as safe as freefalling until the beep.

[kluGe 0]

I`m very new to swoop and to use of audible for piloting too. But "swoop after beep" sounds very strange to me. I`v bought Optima to avoid moving my eyes towards my altimeter. Knowing you approximate altitude without losing sight of traffic and target is good and not add any danger from my point of view.

Am I missing some newest tools which connects altimeter to front risers and pull them with certain beep?

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Am I missing some newest tools which connects altimeter to front risers and pull them with certain beep? Smile

Not really. Those old school guy are arguing that you should not trust your beep or digital altimeter at all, because they do not consider it safe.

One friend of mine is swooping his Sabre 150 without those gadgets. He is doing 270 front riser turns by eye.
He should have a real talent doing those with less than 200 jumps...

or just a dead man walking...

[kluGe 0]

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One friend of mine is swooping his Sabre 150 without those gadgets. He is doing 270 front riser turns by eye.
He should have a real talent doing those with less than 200 jumps...

or just a dead man walking...

I`m not far from this level of experience and done same thing couple of time. After canopy course this looks for me like I was monkey with grenade :( That was miracle I`m not hurt myself. Also speed generated was nothing in comparison to what I can do now from 90.

[billvon 2,991]

>Those old school guy are arguing that you should not trust your beep
>or digital altimeter at all, because they do not consider it safe.

No, we're not arguing that at all. We are saying that your eyes are more reliable than a battery operated gadget, and it is worth acquiring the skills to use them.

>He is doing 270 front riser turns by eye.
>He should have a real talent doing those with less than 200 jumps...

Sounds like a mistake. Adding an audible to him will not make it any safer to do 270's at 200 jumps. He is better off at this stage learning to judge altitude by eye.

[frost 1]

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We are saying that your eyes are more reliable than a battery operated gadget

Thats wrong. no doubt.

Do this test. As you climb after take off, look out of the window and try to GUESS the altitudes, starting from 500 feet to say 6 grand. Check with your neptune or viso or even analog. You'll see how reliable your eyes are.

[obadz 0]

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As you climb after take off, look out of the window and try to GUESS the altitudes, starting from 500 feet to say 6 grand. Check with your neptune or viso or even analog. You'll see how reliable your eyes are.

I have. And the altimeter is consistently wrong!

[skykeith 0]

Here is my two cents. A digital altimeter is a quick reference to re-affirm what your eyes perceive (sight picture). I am a great fan of chest mounted digital altimeters! While looking at the ground you have your altimeter in your field of vision. We have all began the sight picture journey, learning how our canopy’s perform under various conditions. Many of us have had close calls (or worse). I believe a digital reference is a safe way to quickly re-affirm what your eyes are telling you and possibility avoid injuries. I noticed in the video the canopy pilot was looking up at his altimeter just prior to his point of maneuver. In those precious few seconds of looking at his altimeter his altitude changed, he is now lower and being relatively new to swooping might not recognize how to fix his problem(abort, speed up rotation, etc…) Please see attached!

[Pulse 0]

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[Do this test. As you climb after take off, look out of the window and try to GUESS the altitudes, starting from 500 feet to say 6 grand. Check with your neptune or viso or even analog. You'll see how reliable your eyes are.

You're falling short here. Yes, this IS a good idea. Then KEEP doing it. Acquiring an accurate eye takes practice just like everything else. I've been playing games like this with myself since I had around 500 jumps.

And yes, over time one can become very good at judging altitude visually.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[frost 1]

Same here! Still miss it sometimes and see 850-900 as 1000 :)

No doubt :)

[Beer 0]

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Please see attached!

I like that. After my new canopy comes in (before next Wed I hope) and I start working on swooping I might have to make something like that.

Learn to be happy. You can't be there for anybody else in life if you can't learn to be there for yourself.

[Pulse 0]

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Same here! Still miss it sometimes and see 850-900 as 1000 :)
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But I think this is the point. That 100-150 feet can be made up or lost easily depending on the rate of turn, if there was a brief pause in the turn density altitude, etc. An altimeter may be able to tell you what altitude you're at but it's not going to tell where you're going to end up at the bottom of your turn.

Personally, I see a range of 100-150 feet as not that big of a deal as long as I'm monitoring my rates of change throughout the turn.

So what do you do if your visual estimation and your altimeter differ? Do you just go with the altimeter and assume it's right? Do you scrap the whole swoop?

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

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[frost 1]

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But I think this is the point. That 100-150 feet can be made up or lost easily depending on the rate of turn, if there was a brief pause in the turn density altitude, etc. An altimeter may be able to tell you what altitude you're at but it's not going to tell where you're going to end up at the bottom of your turn.

Personally, I see a range of 100-150 feet as not that big of a deal as long as I'm monitoring my rates of change throughout the turn.

I think Ian was saying pretty much the same thing... and I agree. But for experienced pilots - yes we can adjust and control our turn to compensate, for someone with less experience controlling the turn to compensate for a slightly high/low situation may be a more difficult task...

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So what do you do if your visual estimation and your altimeter differ? Do you just go with the altimeter and assume it's right? Do you scrap the whole swoop?

I pretty much dont use my digital visual aid (Neptune) after i turn onto base leg... may be a glance sometimes, but mostly judge by eyes and audible. I decide if i am too low based on my visual picture, backed by Optima flatline beep. If it looks low, chances are the Optima has already flatlined. If i am where i need too be - I'll adjust the turn, if i still have 2-3 seconds to my turn point, i will execute a smaller turn liike a 90 or do a straight-in landing.