What is a swoop anyway?

[hackish 8]

From the very beginning I have always made turns right down to the point of landing, although as more of a beginner than I am now I have to look back and say they were more of flight direction adjustments than any intentional high performance landing.

I see people doing hook turns and nice 270's down to the ground with their 2-pillowcase canopies that scream through the air. That doesn't really interest me and that's really what I've always thought of as "swooping." I'd like to say I don't want to swoop but it's a slippery slope isn't it?

So lately when the sky is clear I'll fly my pattern and come up about 75' left of the bowl, then intentionally give a solid toggle turn right, counter a little to put myself level again then flare out for a landing.

By definition is this really swooping or is it the grey area of a slippery slope? What I've been doing seems reasonable - not pulling any front risers or doing hook turns down. It's also hard to describe exactly how aggressive or not the landings are - it seems to put on a good bit of extra speed but I also recognize that the 170 loaded at 1.25 has the potential to seriously injure or kill...

-Michael

[Samurai136 0]

Congrats! You're a toggle whipping swooper!

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[in2jumping 0]

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Congrats! You're a toggle whipping swooper!

No No hes a old school toggle whipping swooper.


Hackish here is a good thread explaining dangers of toggle hooking/swooping.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=132927;search_string=toggle%20hook%20turns;#132927

[obadz 0]

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So lately when the sky is clear I'll fly my pattern and come up about 75' left of the bowl, then intentionally give a solid toggle turn right, counter a little to put myself level again then flare out for a landing.

Sounds scary

[Pendragon 1]

I'd stop doing that right now. It's toggle whipping, and it gives you a poor swoop, but it's dangerous as you don't have any recourse should you be slightly too low. Ideally you shouldn't need to be performing little corrections on finals either, just stick to your lane.

If you're going to perform ANY manouvre in order to accelerate your canopy from normal flying speed to land, go and speak with the guys on your DZ who might know what they're doing. The ones that fly those "pillowcase" canopies, as you put it, might be a good start.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[alge 0]

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So lately when the sky is clear I'll fly my pattern and come up about 75' left of the bowl, then intentionally give a solid toggle turn right, counter a little to put myself level again then flare out for a landing.

I think Brian wrote this article just for you: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=696.

And as for the question "what is a swoop", I'd answer "the time you fly level to the ground during your flare, no matter how long or short". You'll probably get a longer swoop by flying straight in (full glide) than doing low toggle turns.

Take care. (:

[hackish 8]

Hey Pen. Think we met in DeLand last year.

So no toggle whipping. At my DZ we don't have any people on these sportscar canopies. Just to clarify - the corrections I make on the way down are usually to keep the canopy flying where I want it to go. I've been meaning to check my line trim because naturally it doesn't seem to fly that straight.

On the definition of swoop here it seems that I swoop every landing.

-Michael

[alge 0]

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On the definition of swoop here it seems that I swoop every landing.

Well, it's not like my definition is the authoritative one. I'm just a 290 jump newb. (:

[ficus 0]

IMO, a swoop is an induced-speed landing.

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What I've been doing seems reasonable - not pulling any front risers or doing hook turns down.

Pulling front risers is much more reasonable than what you are currently doing. For a technical explanation (I know you like technical explanations), look into Brian Germain's articles and his excellent book, The Parachute and its Pilot.

[skydivejeff 0]

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So lately when the sky is clear I'll fly my pattern and come up about 75' left of the bowl, then intentionally give a solid toggle turn right, counter a little to put myself level again then flare out for a landing.

Sounds scary

+1 on that...toggle whipping scares the crap putta me!!!

[hackish 8]

My canopy seems to dive a lot more if I tug a front riser versus what I've been doing with the toggles. The canopy does not like any light front riser pressure because it starts to wildly buck so I can't see a comfortable way to try a non-committed fashion. I got into the "toggle whipping" habit by giving a few inches of toggle then moved on to a few more.

Wish I had a video to explain it better. It doesn't feel unsafe because there is usually a second or so of level flight before a slightly accelerated landing. Here is a photo of just after the correction and beginning to flare for landing - sorry that's all I've got. Altitude about 10-15' there.

-Michael

[ianmdrennan 2]

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canopy does not like any light front riser pressure because it starts to wildly buck so I can't see a comfortable way to try a non-committed fashion.

Your brake lines are too short then (most likely) or the canopy is out of trim.

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It doesn't feel unsafe because there is usually a second or so of level flight before a slightly accelerated landing.

It doesn't matter if it feels unsafe the point others are trying to make is that it IS unsafe. That method of inducing speed for landing is frowned upon, and rightly so.

Once again, I recommend you get coaching. A good canopy coach will help you learn more about your gear, why it responds certain ways, how to best set it up for high performance landings, and how to approach high performance landings with as little risk as possible.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[piisfish 140]

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The canopy does not like any light front riser pressure because it starts to wildly buck so I can't see a comfortable way to try a non-committed fashion.

as Ian said, your brake lines must be too short. As a rigger, you will be the one getting gear related questions. Look at the picture you posted, hands around shoulder height and already a lot of tail deflection.
Please try and get a photo of your canopy with hands up at full flight

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Fast 0]

Will it help if I jump on and agree too? Using a toggle to induce speed for landing is MUCH more dangerous than using double fronts or single fronts to turn. Part of me thinks that you are trying to avoid using the front risers because you are afraid to do that dangerous thing that swoopers do and end up getting hurt. In trying to avoid that you have jumped right into doing something that is much more likely to get you injured.

Just my $.02

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[hackish 8]

I did do some reading on the correct length of the brake lines and they suggested an arc under full flight. It did appear to be OK to me. When I purchased the canopy the owner and rigger said it was in trim - that was only 50 jumps ago and he's a good 50lbs on me. I compared the relative length of lines to check trim but admittedly haven't had the time to measure them exactly and compare with a trim chart. Maybe I'll take a tape home from work and do that this evening.

Front risers do scare me a bit, yes. I should see if I can get video of what happens. The reason I wonder about where the line is for swooping and not is that I'm not interested in doing these screaming 270 degree entrances and just giving it a toggle turn before landing felt like a very happy medium between the two. The reason it didn't feel unsafe is that I was able to return to level flight for about a full second before beginning to flare.

Maybe if I can get down to Florida or Arizona this winter I'll see if I can get another canopy course and move further in that direction.

-Michael

[ficus 0]

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I compared the relative length of lines to check trim but admittedly haven't had the time to measure them exactly and compare with a trim chart. Maybe I'll take a tape home from work and do that this evening.

Or instead of all that, you can go jump the canopy and see how far you have to pull the toggles down before you see any tail deflection.

If the tail starts moving the moment you move the toggles, or worse, your brake lines are so short that you are never in full flight, that would definitely explain bucking during front riser input and you would need to lengthen your brake lines.

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The reason I wonder about where the line is for swooping and not is that I'm not interested in doing these screaming 270 degree entrances and just giving it a toggle turn before landing felt like a very happy medium between the two.

Either you're going to generate extra speed for landing or not. If you're going to, you might as well do it the smart way, whether you're turning 270 to final or just coming in on double fronts.

[jurgencamps 0]

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The reason it didn't feel unsafe is that I was able to return to level flight for about a full second before beginning to flare.

1 second? Should be at least between 5 or 10 second (depends from canopy to canopy)

Please spend some money and take coaching.

Do not do wrong what we did wrong before you

[dharma1976 0]

hey hackish,

just an FYI you have had some really competent canopy pilots who have made and seen a lot of the mistakes out there telling you what you are doing is unsafe...

I did the same thing once and it wound up costing me $15000. My friend did the same thing and he wound up in a wheelchair.

I would say take a step back forget the fact that you are smart as hell (I am too) take some advice from people who have made the mistakes for you and definitely find Brian Germain.

Being a toggle monkey can get very painful the one time you fuck it up. I knew a guy who had 1000 toggle whipping "swoops" then on one jump it didn't work out so well for him he broke his back.

You may be different you may not, you may have an advanced degree in physics and think that swinging your body out from under your canopy is a good way to build up speed, it is not.

I am not attacking you, I just remember thinking I knew everything and where it wound me up, and it wound me up with a lot of pain in my body...so please make some wise decisions and listen to people and find yourself a canopy mentor it will save your life and your body if you do.

Cheers man

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[hackish 8]

I'm not disputing at all what you guys are saying. A lot of what I do under canopy is based on the feedback of how it "feels". Since instinct and fact here conflict I'm either doing a poor job of explaining what's going on or the instinct needs adjustment.

I'd like to get video to explain it better and let people pick things apart but if pulling a toggle close to the ground is a lot more dangerous than I thought then it's stilly to continue to do so even if to get peoples' opinions.

-Michael

[hackish 8]

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1 second? Should be at least between 5 or 10 second (depends from canopy to canopy)

When I did the canopy course I was told that you need to return to full flight for 5 seconds to return to normal speed. If the intent of a swoop is to accelerate the landing then would you not want less than 5-10 seconds?

-Michael

[vdschoor 0]

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1 second? Should be at least between 5 or 10 second (depends from canopy to canopy)

When I did the canopy course I was told that you need to return to full flight for 5 seconds to return to normal speed. If the intent of a swoop is to accelerate the landing then would you not want less than 5-10 seconds?

-Michael

Because you want the canopy to recover to level flight by itself, without input.
If that time is less than 5 seconds (and I have to say that is probably long, I'd have to count on my next landing) your canopy is still diving, and it will require input to get it to level flight.

Basically my swoop is like this:

Fly to my initiation point (around 625ft) and start my 270 degree turn.
Complete the turn and let the canopy recover by itself (I actually use a LITTLE bit of rears to help it recover)

The last part of my "turn" is with both hands on the rear risers, diving in a straight line letting the canopy recover by itself as much as possible.. like I said, I don't think this is for 5 seconds, but it is for a couple of seconds at least. I'll let people that take a more technical and analytical approach to swooping fill that part in..

[alge 0]

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1 second? Should be at least between 5 or 10 second (depends from canopy to canopy)

When I did the canopy course I was told that you need to return to full flight for 5 seconds to return to normal speed. If the intent of a swoop is to accelerate the landing then would you not want less than 5-10 seconds?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the 5-10 seconds (I learned 10) was to regain forward momentum after your last toggle input. As in, a toggle turn* will leave you with less forward momentum = less lift and shorter swoop. The only acceleration you get is downward.

I wish there was a free canopy flying simulator to try this on. Hint hint, unemployed geeks. (:

*: Unless you use your harness as well as the toggles, making it a coordinated turn. See Brian's article. (=

[dharma1976 0]

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1 second? Should be at least between 5 or 10 second (depends from canopy to canopy)

When I did the canopy course I was told that you need to return to full flight for 5 seconds to return to normal speed. If the intent of a swoop is to accelerate the landing then would you not want less than 5-10 seconds?

I get on line around 150 ft and allow the canopy to start recovering on its own and then apply some rears to get it to recover a little more quickly and then bump em a little harder when I get to the ground...

turn starts a 650-700 ft depending on atmospheric conditions

I see a bit of me in you and this is why I am telling you what I have seen and done and learned from

Cheers

D

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[JanuszPS 0]

the most important thing which I learned during my first canopy flying course was:
No toggles input during landing and hands up! (no matter what's wind direction)

Recently, ones when friend of mine took a picture of me during the final approach (hands up!) I noticed small deflection on the tail.
When I measured lines (after hard opening) it becomes that there become 10 cm (4 in) shorter!
After extending them my openings improved aswell as landings (more forward speed).

In terms of buckling, on my previous canopy Sb 2 150 (tapered canopy) I always had it. Unless my steering lines were too long to properly (safely) flare, the buckling effect was there. Therefore I needed to compromise the front riser input. Situation improved when first I inducted the turn by my body (harness turn) and then secondly made riser input. That reduced the buckling effect, but not fully.

I think that square(ish) canopies (including Sb2) are more susceptible to buckling that ecliptics, as the distance between the front and rear lines (A and D groups in end cells) are farther. I also think that there is limitation in this what can be achieved by extending the steering lines in terms of buckling. Also important factor is jumpers arm's reach/range. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

regards
Janusz
Sorry for bad English

Back to Poland... back home.

[AggieDave 6]

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In terms of buckling, on my previous canopy Sb 2 150 (tapered canopy) I always had it. Unless my steering lines were too long to properly (safely) flare, the buckling effect was there.

Its a compromise. Long enough to prevent deflection, short enough to leave input ability.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."