General Hook turn Alititude?

[scdiver89 0]

Hey guys I did i quick search that didnt turn up anything too relivent so here goes..

Out of sheer curiosity at what altitude do most people start there hook turn? i would imagine that it has alot to do with canopy type/size/WL and obviously how many degrees of turn but is there a general formula that you try to apply? or do you just practice up high and and apply it down low?

So where do most people start there 90,270,360,720? Also has anyone ever seen or herd of anyone doing more than a 720? a link to a video would be nice if anyone knows of one off the top of thier head

****IM NOT ASKING SO THAT I CAN DO THIS MYSELF AND AM ONLY CURIOUS SO PLEASE DONT BURN ME WITH"you should not be worried about this with your low jump numbers" or someting like that i am not trying to toggle swoop my skymaster 200 haha***

Thanks alot guys

[MagicGuy 0]

Honestly, there isn't really an answer to your question. Everyone starts their turn at a different height, even on the same canopies with same wingloadings. It's all a matter of trial and error, though, as far as trying to figure out where to start. I'll let someone who is better at explaining really get into it, if you really want to know.

A good friend of mine uses this phrase, "It's not where you start your turn, but where you come out of it". Very true...

[shveddy 0]

Its simple just multiply the degrees of rotation by the golden ratio, then subtract your canopy size.

So for a 135 sized canopy doing a 270 degree hook turn...

(270*1.618)-135=301.84 feet.

Most usually round up to 302 though.

[raymod2 1]

I'll bite. At my last comp at sea level I was using an initiation altitude of 1100 feet (+/- 100 feet) for a 450 degree turn on a JVX 90 (zero-p) with RDS loaded at 2.35.

Notice I say "initiation altitude" instead of "turn altitude" - that's because some people initiate their dive by easing off the brakes and/or using double front risers. A decent amount of speed can be attained before you start turning.

Yes, there are a lot of variables and even with the same set of variables there is a good range of initiation altitudes you can use. We experiment and try to use what works best. In my experience, all other things being equal, using a higher initiation altitude allows you to build more speed but makes it harder to put all your power through the gates.

[wildcard451 0]

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Its simple just multiply the degrees of rotation by the golden ratio, then subtract your canopy size.

Lol. 325 feet here...talk about a grease spot.

To the OP - you will find that most people engaging in high performance canopy flight will not consider what they are doing to be hook turns, but rather a controlled approach in a smoothly executed high performance turns.
Hook turning to me conjures up images of that rapid turn and hook with the toggle whipping of the past..

That being said, I like to do my 270 on a VE111 loaded @ 2.2 from around +/- 800. This includes a braked initiation, double fronts and the turn itself.
I'm still learning though, and playing with different heights, and rates of turn. A few more thousand jumps should give me a better idea of what exactly works best for me.

[hookitt 1]

Most people aren't used to seeing a stiletto doing a 360 hook anymore. A nice hard diving slowish stiletto type hook turn will scare all spectators.

A 360 on my old xaos I used to jump was somewhere around 700 feet and slightly below. Adjust the dive accordingly during the turn.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[scdiver89 0]

Thanks guys i love reading about this kinda stuff

[rhys 0]

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Thanks guys i love reading about this kinda stuff

As long as you are reading.

It is very common these days for people to be too aggressive on thier canopy progressions.

this is because swooping does look cool, but it takes alot of experience.

It cannot be said enough that coaching from a reputable coach is paramount for swooping or regular landing patterns if you are goin to keep yourself safe.


I have 6000 jumps and I just finished a canopy piloting coaching course with Jay Moledski, I learned sooooooooo much.

be safe and have fun!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[phoenixlpr 0]

High enough for avoid controlled flight into terrain.

[AggieDave 6]

Even Chuck Norris would learn something from JayMo!

Anyways, at the last sea level meet I was at I was initiating a 270 at 770ft on a Velo 111 loaded 2.7:1. At Mile-Hi that turn was going at 930ft.

That's *the* turn. Most swoopers have a "window of opportunity" in which they know they can complete a specific turn and still make the competition course with a scoring run.

How to figure it out? Many many many many dedicated jumps. Doing altitude clear and pulls and figuring out general altitudes, stepping up their turn rotations slowly and downsizing slowly. There isn't a magic formula that works for everyone every time.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Its simple just multiply the degrees of rotation by the golden ratio, then subtract your canopy size.

So for a 135 sized canopy doing a 270 degree hook turn...

(270*1.618)-135=301.84 feet.

Most usually round up to 302 though.

I hope you are kidding. I hope you are not trying to advise people to follow your formula.

You should push yourself up higher. 300 feet is far too low. It may seem hard to do at first, but it's the right thing to do. A few years back I showed up at Perris Valley to do my first swoop coaching using a Crossfire2 119 with Jim Slaton and I was turning kind of low like you (around 400 feet for me on the xFire2). He pushed me up 200 feet after scolding me in a good way, like any good coach can do.

300 feet is too low.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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That's *the* turn. Most swoopers have a "window of opportunity" in which they know they can complete a specific turn - AggieDave

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A good friend of mine uses this phrase, "It's not where you start your turn, but where you come out of it". - Magic Guy

This is spot on. Most competent swoopers know where their window of opportunity is and adjust their turn rate depending on numerous factors. The hardest part I found with learning how to swoop was when to get off of the front risers (ie: when to stop the turn). Practice, practice, practice. This skill does not come naturally. Repetition is the name of the game ...

and I am not current now so if/when I get back into swooping I too must back up many many steps in my progression and do not pass "Go" without putting my time into playing high, not going big right out of the box and figuring out this oh so important skill of learning one's window of opportunity and learning when to roll out of the turn. I know what to do to get back in the game, but I would be a damn fool if I thought I could be in the game right away without putting my time in.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[wildcard451 0]

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That's *the* turn. Most swoopers have a "window of opportunity" in which they know they can complete a specific turn - AggieDave

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A good friend of mine uses this phrase, "It's not where you start your turn, but where you come out of it". - Magic Guy

This is spot on. Most competent swoopers know where their window of opportunity is and adjust their turn rate depending on numerous factors. The hardest part I found with learning how to swoop was when to get off of the front risers (ie: when to stop the turn). Practice, practice, practice. This skill does not come naturally. Repetition is the name of the game ...

and I am not current now so if/when I get back into swooping I too must back up many many steps in my progression and do not pass "Go" without putting my time into playing high, not going big right out of the box and figuring out this oh so important skill of learning one's window of opportunity and learning when to roll out of the turn. I know what to do to get back in the game, but I would be a damn fool if I thought I could be in the game right away without putting my time in.

Time and money ....

[Martini 0]

Most people aren't used to seeing a stiletto doing a 360 hook anymore. A nice hard diving slowish stiletto type hook turn will scare all spectators.

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True dat. Being constantly bitched at for low hooks is one of the reasons I quit jumping Stilettos. The other reason is the low hooks.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Its simple just multiply the degrees of rotation by the golden ratio, then subtract your canopy size.

So for a 135 sized canopy doing a 270 degree hook turn...

(270*1.618)-135=301.84 feet.

Most usually round up to 302 though.

I hope you are kidding. I hope you are not trying to advise people to follow your formula.

You should push yourself up higher. 300 feet is far too low. It may seem hard to do at first, but it's the right thing to do. A few years back I showed up at Perris Valley to do my first swoop coaching using a Crossfire2 119 with Jim Slaton and I was turning kind of low like you (around 400 feet for me on the xFire2). He pushed me up 200 feet after scolding me in a good way, like any good coach can do.

300 feet is too low.

Seemed pretty obvious the formula was a joke.

I thought it was funny

Performance Designs Factory Team

[shveddy 0]

Yes, very much so kidding.

Completely content with 90's on my Sabre 150; completely unqualified to give any serious advice.

[Pendragon 1]

What I would add is that changing your canopy type will affect the amount of alititude lost in a turn (all other things being equal) way more than a change in wing loading on the same canopy (eg, by wearing lead).

Some examples for when I initiate my 270 turns:

Around 500ft on a Safire2 129; slightly more when I wear a wingsuit
Around 600ft on a Xfire2 109 (about the same when I wear a weight belt)
Around 800ft on a Velocity 96; about the same on a Velocity 90

I've successfully done 270s lower than that, but the turns were faster and I generated less speed in the plane out.

The beauty of a 270 or higher turn is that you have range as well as generating speed - so compensations can be made during the turn to allow for being slightly lower/higher than you would have hoped for - but there is a limit. However, if you are the type of person who makes their turn at a height close to either end of their height-loss range (one pro swooper once told me he could initiate a 270 from between roughly 450 and 900ft on his Velocity and still get a swoop out) then you have nowhere to go when you're out of position.

In addition, when you change your technique, the results can be quite stark - my first turns on the Velocity were initiated at 700ft. Be weary that as you train and get better, you get to hold the dive for longer and so your initiation altitude may go up!

Regarding turn size; 450s are harder to target than 270s, but you generate more speed so those that can, do... 630s start to get very hard to target and this benefit becomes outweighed.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[dharma1976 0]

and to rebut richards statement...

180s:
Sabre2 170, 150 - 500 ftish
crossfire2 129, 119 and 109 500 ftish
Velo 103 and 96 550ftish

270s:
crossfire 119, 109 - 650-700 ft ish

velo 103, 96 650-800ft dependent on fat quotient and sea level relativity...

so richard when you gonna come party with us in NY???

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[pakker 0]

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Its simple just multiply the degrees of rotation by the golden ratio, then subtract your canopy size.

So for a 135 sized canopy doing a 270 degree hook turn...

(270*1.618)-135=301.84 feet.

Most usually round up to 302 though.

I propose degrees_of_turn*e^(10/size_of_canopy_in_sq_meters)

Amusingly it works out pretty accurately for the data I have at hand, but I suspect it overestimates at turns much over 360.

Anyone got something better?

[Pendragon 1]

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...velo 103, 96 650-800ft dependent on fat quotient and sea level relativity...

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so richard when you gonna come party with us in NY???

Dave

Not sure...may be a while - I'm getting married this summer!

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[JohanW 0]

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I propose degrees_of_turn*e^(10/size_of_canopy_in_sq_meters)

Amusingly it works out pretty accurately for the data I have at hand, but I suspect it overestimates at turns much over 360.

Anyone got something better?

Stiletto 135 - 270° @ ~400' - ~50% off
Katana 120 - 270° @ ~850' - ~50% off the other way

With different recovery arcs, there will never be a formula for all canopies.

You're much safer with simply trying up high and working it down to what works for you. The whole window idea means there is no substitute for experience either in adjusting turn vs. dive continuously while turning - your setup will never be consistently absolutely perfect, you will need technique (and different techniques at that).

Fortunately for the likes of me, swooping the beerline is a lot easier than swooping gates competitively.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[wildcard451 0]

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Fortunately for the likes of me, swooping the beerline is a lot easier than swooping gates competitively.

If I have learned nothing else this year so far, this is it.

[Mikko 0]

There's no rule, except that 300 is not enough for a 270.

In competitions, you might see Marat going with a 450 from 1500+ and Vaughan do 990 from somewhat less than that.
And also I think 450 is the most common turn in big competitions these days.

I haven't seen anyone doing more that 990 in competitions, but there's a reason for that. The skilled guys can make a 450 or 630, or even 270 dive enough, and they would only get marginal benefits doing more rotations, which are of course making it harder with accuracy.

This is not only a question of wingloading and the canopy model, but also the personal style of the swooper. I pushed my turn altitude with 450 turn up by 400ft in a year from about 950ft to about 1350ft with the same canopy and wingloading.
The turn altitude is not something you can just decide, it takes time and like hundreds of jumps to get it right, and to be able to adjust it in action.

Then there are some who can do this..
**don't try this at home** but in Spain a few years ago I saw Vaughan do a pretty tight 990 with excellent results, and later on he told me he was going for 630, but got a thermal pushing him up and not to lose any altitude before the turn.....and he went to do another rotation and 990. But I don't know anyone else with more aggressive rotation than his, and the capability to control all that.