When Swooping Do You...........?

[Brumby 0]

When performing a HP landing do you rely on ur audible to tell you when to go or your audible and visual alti?
Just wondering as i used to rely on my audible but now have a viso 2 to double check and feel so much more re-assured now

[chuckakers 425]

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When performing a HP landing do you rely on ur audible to tell you when to go or your audible and visual alti?
Just wondering as i used to rely on my audible but now have a viso 2 to double check and feel so much more re-assured now

Use your eyes - and don't f*ck up.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[gainer 0]

I personally use a number of things, I have an audible and a visual, during competition 2 audibles and a visual. I also use my eyes, cause if both my visual and audible fail then I do have a backup. Finally I try and do the same turn with the same amount of time from the same altitude, consistency.

[Brumby 0]

thats a fair reply. u do use my eyes but sometimes i look as my audible goes and think "that doesnt look right" so abort the intended swoop but with 2 devices it re assures

[AggieDave 6]

Electronic tools are used for the pattern and getting to my window at the right altitude. The decision as to if the altimeter is right and if all the other factors are right are still based on eyes, judgment and experience.

Swoop-by-the-beep leaves you hitting the ground when some of the other variables change.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AndyMan 7]

I think when learning, it's very difficult to not depend on instruments to accurately judge your altitude.

As you become more confident, the instruments take a back-seat to "the sight picture".

It takes time to train your eyes to know what you're looking for, and instruments - both audible and visual, are key to learning.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[wildcard451 0]

As others have said, the digital altimeters are primarily a tool in order to help you evaluate your dive as a learning tool up high, and also for precision pattern flying to get you to your initiation point within your bubble. Developing the sight picture to control rate of turn, dive and rollout, with input or without, comes with time and experience.

Swooping by beeps without knowing how to visually evaluate changing conditions in the dive will get you hurt or killed.

[superstu 0]

Lets put it this way, the majority of top canopy piloting competitors use both audible and visual altimeters. but they've also engrained their sight picture that they can swoop with out one...that's what practice and experience is for

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[Fast 0]

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When performing a HP landing do you rely on ur audible to tell you when to go or your audible and visual alti?
Just wondering as i used to rely on my audible but now have a viso 2 to double check and feel so much more re-assured now

Use your eyes - and don't f*ck up.

I agree. I pretty much refuse to swoop by beep. I have canopy alarms set in my audible, but they are primarily for pattern flying. I have beeps at altitudes specific to my DZ so that I know about where I have to be and if I am ahead of or behind what I want.

I also have a final alarm set at a point where after that swooping may become dangerous. I do it all by sight and I think it's the most reliable way to deal with things. I also know that there is an argument that "well it doesn't look the same at all dropzones" and that's fine, but if I can't safely swoop w/ my eyes then I'm not willing to risk it on beeps.

Only takes a handful of jumps to learn a new sight picture.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[JohanW 0]

It does, however, take a lot of jumps to learn the first sight picture.

I go by eye, not by beep. I may not get the last drop of performance, but I have a lot of flexibility in my setup, I rarely get into trouble and I can manage my way out of trouble. By experience.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[DocPop 1]

I have been taught to fly the pattern using an alti to try to hit the initiation point at the same altitude every time. This minimizes variation - after all there is enough of that with wind, density altitude etc.

However, the final decision to initiate a HP turn to landing is made using the sight picture. This picture is continually monitored during the entire turn and the pilot should be prepared to abort if anything looks wrong (ie. too low).

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Martini 0]

A friend recently threw a 270+ hook using a mechanical alti even though he knew the sight picture was off. Fortunately he wasn't flying his smallish x-brace and was able to stab it out and not die. Turns out the alti had stuck. Ignoring the sight picture isn't a good plan.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[Rugby82 0]

I use the beeps of my optima only for flying my pattern. The last beep is set a bit high so I can dive longer if I want but I can also wait a couple of seconds and make a faster turn if I need some more time. I never use beeps while diving. I think this is dangerous due to ever changing weather.

I always use my visuals to tell me if it fits the beep I heard. One time my Neptune told me I was at 550 ft and my Optima was beeping at the same time set to 350 ft and my visuals told me something else. Aborted the swoop and made a normal landing.

Better safe than sorry.

Blue skies!

[LetsGoOutside 0]

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Electronic tools are used for the pattern and getting to my window at the right altitude. The decision as to if the altimeter is right and if all the other factors are right are still based on eyes, judgment and experience.

Swoop-by-the-beep leaves you hitting the ground when some of the other variables change.

+1

[gaz511 0]

Like most people i use 3 things, a visual alti, an audible and mostly my eyes. Use the instruments to set up and use you eyes and experience to decide if your going to do it or abort. Aborting is bad for your ego but you'll survive to try again which is good, nobody wants to be remembered for dieing doing a shit swoop!
Trust your eyes but be aware in certain light condidtions or times of day things may look closer or further way, i.e the ground. For me, if all 3 things don't agree on the height... i don't do it!

[LetsGoOutside 0]

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For me, if all 3 things don't agree on the height... i don't do it!

Right... but I'd say *any* instead of "all". I've definitely had times where it looked right, but an alarm or a peripheral glance at the altimeter told me otherwise, and my left 270 became a right 90, etc.

[gaz511 0]

thats what i meant sorry, could have worded that better, If any of the 3 aren't right i don't do it. ;)
All 3 need to be in agreement.

[jjudd 0]

Having a initiation point for your turns, ie starting a 270 at 700ft, a 90 at 500ft and having two points before that at different altitudes will allow you to have your setup and initiation where you want with the least deviation. If your to close to your initiation point you can angle outwards around your points on the way there and if your to close you can cut them to make up distance to your initiation point without losing altitude needed for your setup. By doing this you should never turn low

Always use your eyes! Your audible and visual are tools to aid them and help you. Start your turns high until you have consistent turns then move them down to a lower altitude bit by bit until your consistently coming out where you want to be.

Most of all dont let people who don't swoop criticize you ie some people who use a canopy only to get to the ground after a jump though they can be a good source of some knowledge. They should not be criticizing you for asking for something they have no interest or dont wish to do. And no one should criticize you for a good question that will aid you and make you safer in swooping.

Take a canopy piloting course and learn at your own pace. Most of all don't let your ego as we all have one especially in our community hurt you. have an out and if your in doubt use it. most of all if your lower than normal or have doubt dont swoop your canopy weather a velo 74 or crossfire 150 can be landed straight in. I know I dont know it all but this is a few things I have learned since ive sarted jumping and seen friends hurt themselves.

Blue skies and have fun!

[f94sbu 0]

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Most of all dont let people who don't swoop criticize you

I am not sure what to say about this one. If people who dont, swoop get scared of your landings and tell you about it, you are probably in the danger zone! Even non swoopers pick up the behavior of good and bad swoopers, and when they feel like you look like the crazy dude that went in last week, they are probably right!
Bottom line, if someone tells you that what you are doing looks dangerous. take a breath, put your ego away and try to figure out what you are doing that looks dangerous. 9 times out of 10, they have a point and you could walk away with more experience without having to learn it the hard way.

regards,
Stefan

[jjudd 0]

"Most of all dont let people who don't swoop criticize you"


I would have to agree to your response if that was the case and someone said that to you. No where in my post before this did I say "people who dont swoop get scared of your landings and tell you about it". If i did and i said to ignore them then i would understand your comment. Get coaching from someone experienced in the discipline your working on not someone else who doesnt swoop is the point im trying to make when I said that. should have phrased it better apparently


Also i am refering to people commenting on him asking a valid question that deserves a response that may prevent him from coming in while he is waiting for his ditter to beep. Although my opinion is he sould talk to a expert canopy pilot at his DZ not people on DZ.com for swooping advice as this is definetly not the place to be learning that. Nope of us know everything. And im pretty sure I mentioned the not having an ego thing in my post

There are the people with 4000+ jumps that stand by there opinon of swooping is dangerous because they dont and that you should not do that because thats how they feel. Swooping is a choice and risk the person doing it makes not someone else. Ive seen alot of people with alot of jumps that are still shitty pilots.

My end point I was trying to get across to the original poster f94sbu is that currency, piloting skills, and many other factors will keep you as safe as you can be, not a ditter beeping when you finishing your turn. Talk to an expert pilot at your dz. my 2cents

[f94sbu 0]

Maybe the problem here is that English is not my first language. However, you stated initially "Dont let peope who dont swoop criticize you". I was not interpreting that as criticizing _for_ swooping, I was thinking of criticizing your landings.
Bottom line: regardless if someone is a swooper or not, they may be able to give you an outside view that will help you become a better swooper or simply just survive. Dont dismiss people just because they chose not to swoop.

[DocPop 1]

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Maybe the problem here is that English is not my first language. However, you stated initially "Dont let peope who dont swoop criticize you". I was not interpreting that as criticizing _for_ swooping, I was thinking of criticizing your landings.
Bottom line: regardless if someone is a swooper or not, they may be able to give you an outside view that will help you become a better swooper or simply just survive. Dont dismiss people just because they chose not to swoop.

I think maybe "critique" would be a better word for what you are trying to convey. Although not technically true, many people will automatically assign negative connotations to the word criticize.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[jjudd 0]

I owuld have to agree on the bottom line. and critiques would be a better word

[Pulse 0]

What do we always say about AAD's? Something like, "NEVER rely on a mechanical device."

But sooooo many jumpers rely on their altimeters in freefall and under canopy. Even if your visual altimeter were to break. (Needle stuck?) When would you notice it? How much altitude would you lose thinking the altimeter was right? How would you know how high you are when/if you realize it's wrong?

Avoid relying on your altimeter for anything. It should be telling you what you already know.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Avoid relying on your altimeter for anything. It should be telling you what you already know.

I disagree.

While one should avoid over reliance on the device (ie being perfectly capable of jumping, and landing without one). One should also use the tools where available for refinement and accuracy, particularly in the pattern. Digital devices provide a reasonably reliable way to do that.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team