Spinning Linetwist Recovery Techniques?

[BrianSGermain 1]

On Skydive Radio # 191,
[Url]http://traffic.libsyn.com/skydiveradio/sr191_07_03_13.mp3[/url]
we discussed some possible methods for recovering from spinning linetwists on a high performance canopy. I would love to hear more thoughts on the topic.

So here is the question:
"Has anyone had luck with getting out of spinning line twists on a high performance canopy, and if so, how?"

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[rwieder 0]

Good stuff Brian. Mods, need to make this a sticky!

Best-
Richard

[phoenixlpr 0]

Is there transcript available somewhere?
I've listened to that clip. There was not anything about spinning line-twist. Weird.

I push my risers together if I have a line-twist. The canopy wants to open and spins me out of the twist.

[BrianSGermain 1]

phoenixlpr

Is there transcript available somewhere?
I've listened to that clip. There was not anything about spinning line-twist. Weird.

I push my risers together if I have a line-twist. The canopy wants to open and spins me out of the twist.

The Safety First Segment begins at 33 minutes into the show.

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[nigelh 0]

My thoughts are if it doesn't look like it's instantly resolvable then get off it, You'll know this by the first couple of rotations (if that!), you don't have long to sort it and if you make the wrong call by trying different techniques then you are putting yourself in a more dangerous situation.
There are already enough incidents from people fighting canopies they should have got off and/or cutting away low.

A guy was recently very lucky at Empuria and posted his video on Facebook, He doesn't appear to be aware of just how lucky he was
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151669774522692

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Sponored by NZ Aerosports, CYPRES 2, Tonfly & L&B

Team Dirty Sanchez #232

[aeronaut 1]

I was on my third jump with my first cross brace canopy, a 105 xf-15. I pulled at 1800m and got into a severe spinning linetwist. the canopy was spinning downwards and I was spinning under the canopy (more than 5 twists). it was impossible for me to stop me from spinning under the canopy.

--perhaps, it would have been a good idea to try to spread my legs and arms apart at the beginning of the linetwist, to slow down and stop my rotation earlier--

after a while, my rotation under the canopy stopped, but my conapy was still doing very fast spirals towards the earth. I tried different techniques, but because of the high g-force it was not possible to swing me (with my legs) out of the linetwist.

my last and successful try was this.
I put my legs together and straight down, grabbed both risers (left riser group with left hand, right riser group with right hand) and spread them apart as hard as I could (left to the left, right to the right / remember principle of a rubber propeller).
this worked quite well and easy.
I was out of the linetwist at 900m :-).

my best technique to avoid linetwist caused by unsymmetrical inflation is this.
during the opening, I grab both risers (left riser group with left hand, right riser group with right hand) and spread them apart, slightly wider than the broadness of the slider, lean forward so I feel the cheststrap and stay even in the harness.
(I have now 120 jumps with my xf-15 and newer had a linetwist again.)

[champu 1]

BrianSGermain

So here is the question:
"Has anyone had luck with getting out of spinning line twists on a high performance canopy, and if so, how?"

I push the risers together with both hands and twist them opposite the direction of the line twists, trading twists that are up in the lines for twists in the risers below the toggles. Once there are no more twists between your hands and the canopy you can grab the rear risers and stop any diving or spinning that you or the canopy are doing. Now, under a canopy that is flying level, you spin yourself out of the twists in your risers.

As you know, the most important thing is to pay attention to altitude throughout the process. I have twice chopped canopies where I was using the above method, had gotten my hands above the twists, and had gotten the canopy flying level, but only right as I reached my hard deck. The last step is pretty fool-proof but you're not out of the woods until it's over, so I decided to chop in those instances.

One of the things I also like about this method is that if for some reason I find myself under a reserve with line twists and the canopy is diving, I can very quckly get my hands above the twists, stop the dive, and if I absolutely had to I could even land the canopy like that with twists still in the risers below my hands. If you're trying to kick your legs or tug at your risers and you only get halfway done with that method you're going to have a much less successful landing.

[Halfpastniner 0]

Do you have any video of those?? I have always been a spread and kick guy, but honestly really haven't had any line twists in a LONG time (like years). Recently I have had a few openings that were pretty gnarly, including one that I chopped last weekend. I did feel like the kicking and fighting just made a bad situation worse.

I have never tried to push the risers together and twist- I am interested in now in seeing how that works to get out of linetwists before the canopy lays over and things get really exciting.

BASE 1384

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I have never tried to push the risers together and twist- I am interested in now in seeing how that works to get out of linetwists before the canopy lays over and things get really exciting

It doesn't, read it again.

The idea is to move the twists down far enough that you can reach up past them and apply input to straighten out the canopy. Once the turn has stopped, you can kick out of the remaining twists with a level wing.

Here's my problem with the plan - you don't really get any 'practical' experience with it until you're already fucked. At that point you have to learn a new skill, and do it before your hard deck or you have to change up your plans for the rest of the day (and your buddies will miss their tandem w/ $20 tip when they land off following your shit down).

My view, and this may not be popular (but it works for me) is to keep one eye on your altitude, and the other on your canopy, and just pretend the horizon is not reeling by in the background at a million miles per hour.

There are two problems - your canopy is diving, and you have line twists.

The line twists are between you and the canopy. Turn yourself in the opposite direction of the twists, and you'll solve the problem.

The diving is a problem between you and the ground. Figure out a way to get control of your canopy, and you'll solve that problem.

Are spinning line twists on a HP canopy intense? Scary? Fast? Dis-orientating? Sure, all of the above, but if you're not up for that, don't jump a HP canopy. Spinning around on your back? Kick out of half a twist and now you're facing the other way. Keep going, and you won't be spinning out of control for long.

HP canopies require HP canopy piloting at all times, to include kicking out of line twists. It's not going to be easy or fun, but that's what you sign up for when jump that sort of canopy (or a cutaway, one of the two).

[NexGenSkydiver 0]

What has worked best for me is get the risers even and the canopy above my head first, then get out of the line twist. If the canopy has been diving towards the ground with line twist my luck has been the trying to kick out doesnt work because of the spinning and diving of the canopy. I have been able to pull/push the risers near the three ring to get them even which usually stops the spinning and the canopy starts to come over head. If that does not get the canopy over head, then I will reach above the twist if possible and pull the rear risers to level the canopy off. Once the canopy is over head it is easy to kick out of the linetwist and you are losing altitude at a normal rate. This gives you more time to deal with the situation or cutaway and is the method that works for me. Take it for what it is, it is just my 2cents and what I do, not saying it is the perfect or best method.

[matt002 0]

I never found a technique that really works, if a twist started diving aggressively, my plan A becomes cutaway and focus on getting a clean reserve deployment at a good altitude, the speed at which you burn though altitude in that situation is just too fast and there is a tendency to get fixated on winning the battle, especially if your only 1 twist away from getting out.
I used to fight them and won a couple if times but upon checking my altitude after, realised that it was probably not such a smart idea.
I focused my attention on preventing line twists instead and have had much more sucess doing that.

[trigger 0]

+1
My thoughts exactly.
The pushing the risers together does work for me if the canopy isn't in a rotating dive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq31sxfaVZk&feature=c4-overview&list=UUmE15BSrE8KC24jbkefexZw

Learned a lesson here on the above link

Edited to add: the pushing the risers together clearly failed me on this occasion

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[flow 1]

BrianSGermain

So here is the question:
"Has anyone had luck with getting out of spinning line twists on a high performance canopy, and if so, how?"

What has worked for me is that I support my upper body by hanging from both risers. Makes the kicking easy even in a fast spin. You will find out quickly if it's fixable or not.

Negative side is that you're still spinning and burn altitude fast so this technique obviously works only on normal deployment altitude.

One time Velocity decided to give me spinner right at the hard deck, thought that I'd stop the spin and then kick out of the twists. Got the spin to stop but while holding one rear riser to keep the canopy flying on level and trying to kick out of multiple twists, didn't work out quite as planned. Ended up chopping at 1400 ft.

Now, if I'm down at the basement with a spinner, time to switch canopies.

[airdvr 210]

Just to add a quick thought. I'm wondering if people are spending too much time trying to get out of spinning line twists lately. Mindset could be ' its only line twists, I can get out of this'.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[DougH 270]

My three chops that weren't on tandems were all diving line twists. I grabbed the risers near the three rings and tried to even them out to stop the diving/spinning. It only took me one or two rotations to say screw it, I will find my gear later, chop & pop!

I trust that my reserve is going to open, I don't want to dick around with line twists. Maybe I could have fixed them and avoided the reserve ride, but I had lots of time to focus on more important things by being quick to the chop.

I have only had diving line twists maybe 5 or 6 times, and I have chopped 3 of those times. Am I being too quick to chop? Don't know don't think I should care, they have all had great outcomes with my current approach!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

I focused my attention on preventing line twists instead and have had much more success doing that.

+1

edit: To add, it's been my experience that MOST (not all) of the time the pilot makes it worse by preemptively panicking and starting to kick out of the twists prior to deployment being complete. I've had the best success with treating the deployment like it's perfect, focusing on symmetry, and then once it's COMPLETELY deployed, gently working my way out of the line twists.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[3mpire 0]

Quote

Do you have any video of those??

Starts at 1:30

http://vimeo.com/29103767

[Fast 0]

I have avoided the problem for the most part by doing my best to not fight what the canopy is choosing to do. If it's going left on deployment, I want me going left with it, etc. I make a point to bring my hands/arms/legs close to the center of the rotational axis that runs from my feet to the top center of the canopy.

The line twists happen because the configuration of the risers and canopy isn't able to exert enough force on your body to make it spin too, so I do things that work to make that easier for the canopy.

The few times I have had decent line twists I have always found that getting the canopy to stop diving prior to dealing with the line twists was easier. It's super disorienting but I have managed to work it out. Generally I do this by adjusting using harness input. I haven't had twists bad enough that shifting my weight one way or the other wouldn't cause the lines to slide past one another through the twists.

It usually goes something like "fuck this thing is spinning, *lean over*, fuck this thing is spinning faster, *go other way*, stop turn, kick out of line twists"

Dunno, just my personal experience.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[gowlerk 2,190]

Quote

I never found a technique that really works, if a twist started diving aggressively, my plan A becomes cutaway and focus on getting a clean reserve deployment at a good altitude, the speed at which you burn though altitude in that situation is just too fast and there is a tendency to get fixated on winning the battle, especially if your only 1 twist away from getting out.
I used to fight them and won a couple if times but upon checking my altitude after, realised that it was probably not such a smart idea.
I focused my attention on preventing line twists instead and have had much more sucess doing that.

As far as I'm concerned this is the only correct answer. I'm not sure I want to get into an argument with Brian, or any of the the other HP pilots here. But too many people have died trying to fix this shit. Why are you encouraging others to take a chance? Cut that shit away, it's only money and pride. It's one of the prices you pay for the exciting ride you chose.

Ken Gowler

Edited to add that I haven't listened to the show, and that may be what Brian advises for all I know.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[champu 1]

Halfpastniner

Do you have any video of those... ...I have never tried to push the risers together and twist- I am interested in now in seeing how that works to get out of linetwists before the canopy lays over and things get really exciting.

I'm sure there are several examples somewhere in my bins of miniDV tapes, but I haven't had more than a linetwist in years. As others have mentioned a hundred feet of prevention is worth a thousand of cure, and keeping yourself as centered/balanced as possible through inflation, even if your canopy goes sightseeing, is the best way to avoid line twists altogether.

But that wasn't the question that was asked.

Also, as Dave clarified, the riser-twisting method doesn't get rid of the linetwists, it just gets your hands above them so you can get the canopy flying level if it was diving.

[Divalent 135]

champu

... Also, as Dave clarified, the riser-twisting method doesn't get rid of the linetwists, it just gets your hands above them so you can get the canopy flying level if it was diving.

In my experience using the technique (all 3 times I've had more than a full twist in the last ~250 jumps or so), it is effective for getting rid of them. Admittedly I'm jumping a Pilot loaded ~1:1, but once I got the twists down onto the risers, I found my body being rotated in the right direction.

(I haven't had twists in a long while (>150 jumps, IIRC) but I'm a reasonably careful packer and concentrate on flying my body symetrical all the way to inflation.)

[nigelh 0]

gowlerk

As far as I'm concerned this is the only correct answer. I'm not sure I want to get into an argument with Brian, or any of the the other HP pilots here. But too many people have died trying to fix this shit. Why are you encouraging others to take a chance? Cut that shit away, it's only money and pride. It's one of the prices you pay for the exciting ride you chose.

Ken Gowler

Edited to add that I haven't listened to the show, and that may be what Brian advises for all I know.

I agree!!

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Sponored by NZ Aerosports, CYPRES 2, Tonfly & L&B

Team Dirty Sanchez #232

[danornan 79]

I watched someone below me kick so hard out of line twists that he spun it right back up the opposite direction and had to chop. Kicking too hard can have the opposite effect.

Dano

[uberchris 0]

i just had my first cutaway a few weekends ago, the problem with me was that i was twisted all the way up my risers into my lines, i was violently spinning left, and what made me say FUCK fighting this is the fact that my head was pinned down to the right, i have a fullface, and i could NOT see my altimiter. i did not have altitude awareness. however, because i am a new wingsuiter i pull at 4500, so i knew that i had some altitude but i wasnt willing to fight without knowing exactly how much. luckily everything went quite well, i got all my components back, and had a good stand up landing on my reserve.

gravity brings me down.........

[Ronsebag 0]

http://youtu.be/s2DLvlz6y7I
Not a spinning line twist but this is the way I got out of my
Almost reserve ride. " maybe it should have been one