Wingloading for profit, not fun.

[DocPop 1]

Thanks Chuck - I certainly take your point.

My own point of view is that we should be striving for all jumpers to at least get to the point where they are comfortable using all their inputs in a controlled environment.

This does not mean pulling on fronts near the ground, but rather to give confidence in doing so up high, along with things such as flying at the edge of a stall for prolonged periods of time or practicing planned landings on rears. I believe that doing these exercises on a regular basis would foster a level of confidence that perhaps would reduce the number of incidents caused by, for example, canopy collisions or knee-jerk low-turns due to traffic, obstacles etc.

Personally, I don't think repeated pull->full glide->pattern->flare gives jumpers enough of a 'feel' for their canopy to make them a safe jumper when something out of the ordinary occurs. And that affects all of us.

Having said that, I respect your experience and your argument is well stated. Perhaps this needs a new thread?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[krisco 0]

Here's an idea,
Don't listen to anyone who gives you advice on the internet. When you have enough experience you'll be able to weed out the bullish!t, but right now you're asking for trouble with a subject like this.

What should you do then?
Well firstly you don't need to be a swooper to downsize, you need skills!

How do you get skills you ask?
Lots of sweet jumps and....
Get a coach, get videos of yourself landing and study them with a coach.
If you're honest with yourself, you'll end up at a canopy size reflecting your ability, competency, particular interests and risk vs reward factor!

Good luck and don't bounce ;-)

Skydivers are nothing but a bunch of Narcissistic A$$holes!!
Front risers were made for pulling! Pal
MuFF#5640
D.S. # 2012

[chuckakers 425]

DocPop

Thanks Chuck - I certainly take your point.

My own point of view is that we should be striving for all jumpers to at least get to the point where they are comfortable using all their inputs in a controlled environment.

This does not mean pulling on fronts near the ground, but rather to give confidence in doing so up high, along with things such as flying at the edge of a stall for prolonged periods of time or practicing planned landings on rears. I believe that doing these exercises on a regular basis would foster a level of confidence that perhaps would reduce the number of incidents caused by, for example, canopy collisions or knee-jerk low-turns due to traffic, obstacles etc.

Personally, I don't think repeated pull->full glide->pattern->flare gives jumpers enough of a 'feel' for their canopy to make them a safe jumper when something out of the ordinary occurs. And that affects all of us.

Having said that, I respect your experience and your argument is well stated. Perhaps this needs a new thread?

I think we're ok keeping this conversation here. It's relevant to the subject, IMO.

I'm on the fence with your view, but we may be closer together than our posts would indicate. When I spoke of folks who only want to use "old fashion" inputs to get to the ground, I wasn't referring to the technique you mentioned (repeated pull->full glide->pattern->flare). I would be the first to encourage those folks to get out of that habit. The inability to think strategically and maneuver accordingly is one of the problems we have in the sport today. As a load organizer at a large DZ I have the important and sometimes unpleasant duty of discussing this stuff with folks who aren't getting it.

The folks I'm referring to really do "get it", but just choose to fly old school. The best example I can present are older jumpers with years of experience. They by no means are the type of jumpers you referred to. They understand things that many do not like vertical separation, modification of flight path to avoid conflict, etc, and can make it happen. They don't use techniques commonly taught today but they are perfectly safe in any environment.

I think many jumpers today confuse perfection of technique with mastery of skillful understanding. We have become very good at teaching people how to do things with their wings, but that doesn't always translate to a jumper making good choices, especially under pressure.

Unfortunately our data collection on incidents is miserable. I think we may have reached a point in performance technology that requires us to make better use of the information we could glean from incidents - especially close calls where we can get first-hand, real-time information - to advance our safety protocol.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[DocPop 1]

I think you're right - we are on the same track here.

I was thinking more along the lines of new jumpers learning their wings before downsizing, and I understand you were coming at it from the perspective of experienced jumpers with years of experience.

I agree that the things you mention (creating vertical separation, slotting into a pattern etc) are essential skills that need practice, and require thinking about on every jump. That may be the major problem we are facing now - having a freefall dive plan but then switching the brain off under canopy.

I also think your other point is a key one; we can teach how to perform various maneuvers under canopy, but teaching good decision-making is a whole lot harder.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[SethInMI 174]

On the topic of using front risers for things other than HP landings,

Does anyone use/teach a technique of one front riser and one toggle as a means to "lower" yourself while maintaining heading? I never have seriously tried it, but I have heard it mentioned before, usually as a CRW technique. The idea is to pull one front riser, then compensate with opposite toggle to keep heading, and this should result in a sink.

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[skow 6]

SethInMI

On the topic of using front risers for things other than HP landings,

Does anyone use/teach a technique of one front riser and one toggle as a means to "lower" yourself while maintaining heading? I never have seriously tried it, but I have heard it mentioned before, usually as a CRW technique. The idea is to pull one front riser, then compensate with opposite toggle to keep heading, and this should result in a sink.

Quite interesting. But what is the difference between this and using both fronts? Also is there a difference which front and which toggle you use?

[Bufobufo 0]

By using one front riser combined with opposing rear you deform the canopy to bleed off some speed and at the same time loose altitude without loosing your heading.

Double fronts bleeds off altitude, but gives you additional speed so if you are above the canopy you want to get down to and fly side by side you now will be like 20-30 yards ahead when you are on the same level.

Same side front and rear will tilt the canopy making it loose heading.

[lyosha 50]

DocPop

*** My point was more about people who insist that jumpers need to learn and use all the various control techniques - particularly front risers - to be competent, safe jumpers and I disagree with that mindset.

Do you disagree with flying a canopy in all flight modes before downsizing?

The commonly heard advice is to get to know everything about your wing before downsizing - would you say that does not include becoming comfortable with front riser use?

[This is a genuine question - not a trap or a disagreement with your statement]

If that were the case we'd all be eternally stuck flying NAV-280s. Have fun with any kind of front riser turns on that beast...

There is clearly some kind of additional qualification missing from that statement - you should not have to learn to swoop a 1:1 loaded Sabre2 to go down to 1.1:1...

[hcsvader 1]

My canopy pregression was as follows
Pilots 188 @ 1.0 jump 30 - 140
Safire2 159 @ 1.2 jumps 140-210
Safire2 149 @1.27 jumps 210 - 750
Safire 129 @ 1.5 currently

Quote

what is a good wingloading to have in order to have good control authority in the flare and stability in winds?

The safire2 149 loaded at 1.27 was a fantastic all around canopy and wing loading. I put over 500 jumps on that canopy and loved it. Never really had issues with being blown backwards (choosing reasonable wind limits helps)
Always felt like a solid canopy in bumpy conditions (again avoiding jumping in gusty conditions and learn to avoid turbulent areas helps)
It was also a very fun canopy to fly fast if and when you want. I was the same in that swooping was not a goal, but as I progressed and learned more about canopy flight HP landing did become something I really enjoy. You can still have really fun, nice, fast landings on a lightly loaded canopy.

If you are looking to downsize because jumping in high winds is a problem also remember that landing the smaller canopy in no wind conditions is going to be much faster.

Quote

When the wind picks up to 15 knots or so it starts becoming a bit of a pain to get forward speed.

When the wind picks up to 15knots or so Im usually trying to convince people its time to go drink beer, landing in high winds just isnt fun.

Some good reads here

Big canopies and turbulence
http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Big_Canopies_in_Turbulence_718.html

Something I found pretty interesting regarding higher wingloading was from Bryan Burkes Eloy incident summary

Quote

Anyone who wishes to avoid malfunctions can do so through two simple actions. One, stay under a 1.4 wing loading. Just under one third of our malfunctions in the past two years were at 2.0 or higher loading. About six percent of our jumpers are at this wing loading. I am certain they do not make one third of all jumps.

Half were on wing loadings above 1.7, which represents a little less than 20% of our jumpers. Two thirds of the malfunctions were at 1.4 or higher. Yet according to our boogie records, two thirds of all our jumpers are under a 1.4 wing loading. Without knowing just how many jumps are made at which wing loadings, we cannot make an exact conclusion, but the correlation is still pretty obvious.

Two, learn exactly how all of your gear works and maintain it carefully.

Full article can be found here

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4098042;search_string=bryan%20burke;#4098042

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[hcsvader 1]

lyosha

****** My point was more about people who insist that jumpers need to learn and use all the various control techniques - particularly front risers - to be competent, safe jumpers and I disagree with that mindset.

Do you disagree with flying a canopy in all flight modes before downsizing?

The commonly heard advice is to get to know everything about your wing before downsizing - would you say that does not include becoming comfortable with front riser use?

[This is a genuine question - not a trap or a disagreement with your statement]

If that were the case we'd all be eternally stuck flying NAV-280s. Have fun with any kind of front riser turns on that beast...

There is clearly some kind of additional qualification missing from that statement - you should not have to learn to swoop a 1:1 loaded Sabre2 to go down to 1.1:1...

Have a read through Bill Vons downsizing check list. I think its pretty reasonable to be able to do all those things on a Sabre2 at 1:1 before downsizing.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[skow 6]

hcsvader

Quote

Anyone who wishes to avoid malfunctions can do so through two simple actions. One, stay under a 1.4 wing loading. Just under one third of our malfunctions in the past two years were at 2.0 or higher loading. About six percent of our jumpers are at this wing loading. I am certain they do not make one third of all jumps.
Half were on wing loadings above 1.7, which represents a little less than 20% of our jumpers. Two thirds of the malfunctions were at 1.4 or higher. Yet according to our boogie records, two thirds of all our jumpers are under a 1.4 wing loading. Without knowing just how many jumps are made at which wing loadings, we cannot make an exact conclusion, but the correlation is still pretty obvious.
Two, learn exactly how all of your gear works and maintain it carefully.

I didn't ready the whole article but it seems to me a bit like "avoid the problem in order to solve it". I'm exaggerating but I think it's nothing wrong with jumping a high(er) WL when you know what your're doing. I think accidents happen when people jump WL above 1.4 too fast i.e. before really mastering a bigger canopy.

[Polorutz 0]

Guys, thank you very much for your inputs.

I have bought a pulse 170 and am loading it at 1.0 / 1.1 depending on how many donuts I eat that week.

I am comfortable with it and plan to stay with this canopy for a long time to come. I've done a canopy course with Flight-1 and the instructor agreed that 1.4 is about as much as you want to load a canopy for wind purposes.

I plan to downsize to a 150 in maybe 300 or so jumps after I have experienced the 170 in all wind conditions. After that I plan to stay on the 150 forever or until I change my mind about high perf landings which I don't think I will.

Once again thanks for the comments.