Stileto flight

[Leoroth 0]

I have doubts and I hope someone can help me.
I have 300 jumps and I use a stileto 150, I really like the type of flight and recovery. I think a nice canopy to fly, however I think its tense opening, most often rotating.
Is there a canopy with the same characteristics of the flight Stileto therefore with a controlled and softer opening?
How about safire2 149?
Thanks

[gunneroy 0]

by absolutely no mean an expert.
but it sound like what you want is a crossfire. the are supposed to have a lovely opening and will have the performance and there shorter (ish) recovery arc your'e used to from your stiletto.
if im wrong on this please correct me
cheers

[Zlew 0]

It depends specifically what part of the Stiletto flight you want to keep. If it is just the flat glide angle/recovery...then there are lots of options (Safire/Pulse come to mind).


If what you like about the stiletto are the highly elliptical flight characteristics (fast turn response, fast rotation on turns, really rolling/diving into turns), I think you will be unhappy with something like a pulse or safire. If those are the characteristics you like, the Katana might be worth looking into. The toggle and general (non swoop) flight is very similar to the stiletto, and the openings are more consistent. It is a big step up though concerning the steeper glide and much longer recovery compared to the Stiletto.

*spent years on Stilettos and transitioned to katana/Velo

[Joellercoaster 6]

I am not a swooper, so the non-swoop bits are the bits that interest me the most.

The Stiletto is brilliant (openings aside). But I borrowed a same-sized Katana last season for a while and hated it. Everything you do (including nothing!) loses so much altitude by comparison. It also takes forever to roll out; the Stiletto recovers from anything super quickly (and it's kind of addictive).

I realise this is deliberate, diving and staying dived is important for swooping. But if you like Stiletto flying, you may find the Katana is not for you.

Other things: the Katana I borrowed opened beautifully and softly, maybe the nicest of any canopy I have tried. But it felt less agile, if that is a word.

I sort of agree with the person who said Crossfire; it's a lovely canopy and also incredibly nice on opening. I would also say that while the recovery arc is shorter than the Katana, in no way would I describe it as "short" in the way the Stiletto behaves. But maybe nothing else is

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[ianmdrennan 2]

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think you will be unhappy with something like a pulse or safire. If those are the characteristics you like, the Katana might be worth looking into.

It's generally the opposite from what you're saying is my experience. The Pulse is much faster on the turns (like a ST) and the KA is sluggish on the turns, but divey (like a VE).

If you want fast turns and flat glide, the pulse is a great canopy to look at.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Zlew 0]

I'd definitely take Ian's advice over mine on this one, but my experience with the turns on the KA/Stiletto was different.

It may have been due to the wing loading, as I went from a Stieltto to a KA of the same size at ~1.8:1, but for turns they felt almost the same to me. I read the PD manuals, and was ready for the "slightly slower" KA turn rate, but there wasn't a difference I could notice.

I don't have any time on a Pulse at that wing loading. That may be why it felt like a significant step down in performance compared to the Stiletto to me. The recommended max is 1.5:1 for that wing, but if the OP is inside that range, I think Ian is correct, and he may really like that wing for the great openings, flat glide an crisp turns.

Also... the KA is steeper, and I know people talk about how fast it comes out of the sky, but I felt like that was a bit exaggerated when I first flew the wing. I went from the "flat" Stiletto to the "lead sled" Katana, and the difference wasn't nearly as pronounced as the hype lead me to believe it would be. Yes it is steeper... but it really didn't seem like that big of a deal.

[dzswoop717 5]

I have a couple of thousand jumps on a stileto. Openings were the only thing I didn't care for. You must have your sholders square at pull time and keep your legs even thoughout the opening. You can use your legs to control the heading during opening if it starts to turn on you,, just don't over do it. Keep fresh linesets on them and they open and fly much better. A couple of years ago I gave my canopy to MEL to have it relined. He put Vectran lines on it and it now opens much slower and smoother. I had 3000 f111 jumps when I started jumping my stileto. It took me a couple of hundred jumps to learn how to get it to open on heading consistantly. I will admit that I still get a wild ride every once in a while but, I think that is because of my crappy packing skills. I have jumped several different ZP canopies over the years and I just feel at home under a stileto.

[Zlew 0]

Quote

Keep fresh linesets on them and they open and fly much better. A couple of years ago I gave my canopy to MEL to have it relined. He put Vectran lines on it and it now opens much slower and smoother.

+1 I started using vectran as soon as they allowed it on mine. It didn't change the openings...but it kept them as good as they were with a brand new lineset 5-600 jumps in. When they get out of trim, they open erratically ...vectran fixes that.

[chuckakers 425]

Leoroth

I have doubts and I hope someone can help me.
I have 300 jumps and I use a stileto 150, I really like the type of flight and recovery. I think a nice canopy to fly, however I think its tense opening, most often rotating.
Is there a canopy with the same characteristics of the flight Stileto therefore with a controlled and softer opening?
How about safire2 149?
Thanks

I suggest you look at problems with that specific canopy or possibly your technique in packing or deployment. I have over 2,000 jumps on Stiletto's with wing loadings ranging from 1.3 to 1.8 with canopies from brand new to 2,000 jumps.

Beyond a 90 degree turn caused by one side or the other opening first (once every 30 or 40 jumps), I have never had a problem with the canopy.

You didn't define what you meant by "rotating". Any elliptical can turn somewhat during deployment so if you are talking about a 90 or so, that's pretty common.

Stiletto's do open quicker than most elliptical canopies, but I personally like that. I like that I can pitch out at a lower altitude and not have an 800 to 1,000 foot opening. Stiletto openings are predictable and that scores high on my list of favorable attributes.

I also suggest you contact PD and ask them about this. They are - by far - the most responsive and pro-active canopy manufacturer in the world and will gladly work through this with you. You can even send them the canopy and they will test jump it to see what's really going on with it.

I too like the flight characteristics of the Stiletto. It has the flattest glide of any elliptical in the world to bring me home or hang above the crowd when I need to, yet if I want to rip it up and swoop the beer line I can make it happen. It also has one of the shortest recovery arcs in the sport, making performance turn altitude variations most easy to handle.

Contact PD and let them guide you. Whether you stay with the Stiletto or go with something else, I assure you they will make you happy.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Leoroth 0]

Thank you all for the explanations.
I really am a beginner and do not have experiences to understand and differentiate openings in other models and brands of canopy.
when I talk about turning spins are usually 90 or 180 degrees, sometimes the canopy opens and keeps spinning, but not always.
I think this is what really happens in the opening stileto, lack of practice.
I will pay attention to the packing of the canopy.
I like it and want contiuar flying the stileto.
Thanks guys, you guys helped me a lot.

[Zlew 0]

I may have mis-read your first post. You have 300 jumps total, not 300 jumps on a Stiletto...is that correct?

Quote

I really am a beginner and do not have experiences to understand and differentiate

In that case, please disregard my recommendation to try a Katana.

I know they used to recommend ~500 jumps before jumping a Stiletto-like fully elliptical wing.

Elliptical are usually very sensitive to body position on opening.
You might also check the line trim. As noted before, when they are out of trim openings can get "sporty".

With my old Stiletto with vectran lines, 90% of my openings were on heading. Once in a while the occasional quick 90 or so degree turn as the slider came down.

[craddock 0]

I borrowed a ST120 and bought an ST107 at under 200 jumps. I only say this as this thread is not about progression and about openings and as I didn't have the most experience to fly it through the openings I find it relevant. Even so I never had an issue with the openings on that 107 and I jumped it for almost two years. All my issues with openings came after I moved on to more high performance wings.

That said there are people that have responded to this thread with way more experience on that airfoil than I have and indicated it was not perfect for opening. For me though it served my needs at the time well and and I can't even describe it's openings at this point it has been so long. That lack of description though speaks for the fact that I had no issues with it. I owned a 120 in a rig that I traded for just to sell and did put some jumps on it that was wonderful opening. I do recall being amazed at how it opened to maybe my 107 wasn't without faults? I sold it to a buddy and when he moved on bought it back for my Future ex wife. She loved it. Bit more than she needed but opened and landed better for her than the old Air Time Designs canopy she was jumping.

Of all the canopies I jumped that racked my nerves on opening though, the Stiletto was not on the list. Worst was a vx74 that I borrowed for a(THE) boogie. Or a Sabre when it was in a bad mood

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Joellercoaster 6]

ianmdrennan

the KA is sluggish on the turns, but divey

Aha. That was the perfect description I was looking for!

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[flyingstrauss 0]

Hey man, if you don't mind flying more "alternative" canopies, I'd suggest you go and try Springo. Great openings, short recovery arc, pretty responsive (not as much as the Stiletto though).

[RyanKatchmar 0]

In my opinion the canopy that is closest to the stiletto is a Nitron. I've had mixed experiences with the openings though. Some swear by them but I wasn't a fan. Demo it.

[ufk22 33]

Body position, body position, body position
You must get symmetrical and stay symmetrical through the whole opening.
I've found the Stiletto no more "turn-prone" than the Monarchs or Sabres if you aren't twisting you body.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.